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The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

sebastianmarines.com

21–30 of 116 posts

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#21
post #8

It always amazes me in-depth HN gets on pretty much any subject, yet the most basic cursory network page gets massive response Is there simply a total lack of understanding of how networks work in the tech community?

Yes. I've worked across a range of companies for small startups to Fortune 500s for nearly 30 years, interviewing for positions from system administrators to dev ops to programmers, beginners to architects. There's just not a lot of generalists out there. It always surprises me how far folks can get in their careers with a very narrow knowledge base.

A couple years ago I was bringing a Java programmer up to speed on some C code just to learn they had no idea what a call stack was or how it worked. They were familiar with the stack as a data structure, but had no idea how a CPU worked or that it has a stack pointer register.

As long as the abstractions don't leak, I guess everything is fine. I mean, I can't really tell you at a physics level exactly how semiconductors work. At best I can hand wave an explanation.

That said, the lack of even hand waving knowledge about how the internet works among professionals who use it every day continues to surprise me.

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#22
post #13

If the destination machine has disabled ping, what response is recieved?

nothing from that machine, but the way the ttls work, it doesn’t affect the responses from routers along the way. Same if the destination doesn’t exist at all.

Totally untrue. Network admins will often disable traceroute responses because security.

Edit: the less someone knows about your internal topology the better. Security through obscurity does work.

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#23
Traceroute doesn't see 90% of the machines your packet passes through.

When your packet leaves a router at some-pop-some-port-wherever, that fiber isn't usually the same piece of glass that plugs into the next hop. There's a whole chain of amplifiers and possibly multiplexers that handle it between here and there.

Some of those provide reliable transport service, giving you the illusion of a fiber that never breaks, despite backhoes doing what backhoes do. Some of those shift the wavelength of your signal, letting you use cheap optics without troubling in the nuances of DWDM that packs your signal alongside dozens of others onto the same long-haul fiber. Some of those just boost the signal, along with all those others on the same fiber.

But what all those machines have in common, is that none of them speak IP. None of them touch the payload. None of them are capable of decrementing a hop count. They're "part of the wire" as far as the packet is concerned.

In my experience, this leads to two types of network engineers, separated by their understanding of these underlying realities.

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#24
post #8

It always amazes me in-depth HN gets on pretty much any subject, yet the most basic cursory network page gets massive response Is there simply a total lack of understanding of how networks work in the tech community?

Yes. Learning to "program" has never been easier, but nitty gritty stuff like networks and routing is still much more technical than the avg SWE

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#25
post #8

It always amazes me in-depth HN gets on pretty much any subject, yet the most basic cursory network page gets massive response Is there simply a total lack of understanding of how networks work in the tech community?

Wait until DNS comes up again. I don't know how many DevOps, SRE, Senior Architects, etc. that I've worked with that just don't understand how names are resolved. There's a wide array of specialists that don't understand general fundamentals.

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#26
post #8

It always amazes me in-depth HN gets on pretty much any subject, yet the most basic cursory network page gets massive response Is there simply a total lack of understanding of how networks work in the tech community?

As someone with a good deal of networkimg knowledge, yeah, most people don't have very much.

You can do a lot without knowing anything about routing, and very little about protocols. And all those network people always seem grumpy, why learn about it if you don't want to be grumpy. ;p

Edit to add: how networking works in reality and how networking works in books and coursework tends to be quite different as well. GeoDNS and Anycast IP are a big conceptual jump for people who only understood networks from coursework. There's also a common assumption that routing protocols favor least distance routing which is certainly not the case. I may be obsessed with path MTU problems, but that's a real hard concept to explain to experienced tech people with slim networking knowledge. Also, a lot of people seem to believe the OSI model is fact and not a model of the world; it's not unuseful, but there's lots of hardware and software that operates at more than one OSI layer simultaneously and people stuck on a rigid model can have an incorrect view of the world which impedes their problem solving.

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#27
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing from that machine, but the way the ttls work, it doesn’t affect the responses from routers along the way. Same if the destination doesn’t exist at all.

Totally untrue. Network admins will often disable traceroute responses because security. Edit: the less someone knows about your internal topology the better. Security through obscurity does work.

~~ Security through obscurity does work.

As a layer.

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#28
This is a significantly better technical presentation on how traceroute works[0]; for example, unlike the illustrations in the linked article, traceroute does not necessarily take a symmetrical return path; the return path is hidden from the client -- the client only sees the forward path.

[0] https://archive.nanog.org/sites/default/files/traceroute-201...

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#29

Traceroute doesn't see 90% of the machines your packet passes through. When your packet leaves a router at some-pop-some-port-wherever, that fiber isn't usually the same piece of glass that plugs into the next hop. There's a whole chain of amplifiers and possibly multiplexers that handle it between here and there. Some of those provide reliable transport service, giving you the illusion of a fiber that never breaks,…

In traceroute’s defense, it is traceroute — for sure it doesn’t tell you anything about the devices that don’t operate at the IP level. Those devices either don’t affect the IP “route” abstraction (e.g., signal boosters) or do so in ways that end up plausibly visible in the next hop.

There’s a reason the network layer abstraction is so strong, and an analogy to CPU ISAs here that have a similar strength.

TCP, similarly, doesn’t tell you when packets are deduplicated/resent/reordered/etc. — that’s just not part of the presented abstraction. Want that? Use UDP.

Re: The journey of an internet packet: Exploring networks with traceroute

#30
post #6

On the other hand traceroute isn’t real[0] 0: https://gekk.info/articles/traceroute.htm

> It is, generally speaking, not possible to call AT&T and say "Hey, when I try to ping one of your subscribers in California from a Level3 circuit in New York, I'm hitting a routing loop." I’ve reported similar things to my isp and they’ve changed their lock prefs to send the traffic via a different peer and bypass the problem.

There are more private subscribers that pretend they know what they’re talking about than actually do. Probably makes sense to ignore a good proportion of the nonsense people throw at ISP L1 teams.
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