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Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

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Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#21

Post by troupo »

khafra wrote: post #6
sidewndr46 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuel economy standards, emissions standards, safety standards, & profit margins. If you want to sell cars and make money, compacts are not where it is at.

Compacts, subcompacts, and microcompacts are very popular in Europe. Is this because Europe has fewer and less restrictive standards for fuel economy, emissions, and safety? I am not an automotive policy expert, but I feel like Europe tends to regulate more than the US does.

> Compacts, subcompacts, and microcompacts are very popular in Europe.

They are also growing in size. Most "compacts" are the size of many regular SUVs from 20 years ago

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#22

Post by Amezarak »

EligibleDecoy wrote: post #11
jszymborski wrote: post #3

I really don't get the NA car market. There is a demand for small kei car/trucks as is natural with cities growing and parking dwindling. Yet even compacts are disappearing. My kingdom for an EV compact that is compact. Even the Fiat 500s and Mini Coops feel like they get bigger each year.

Because of a quirk of emissions controls in the US. Longer wheelbases and heavier vehicles can get by with poorer emissions. It was done, at the time, to help semi trailers and other huge trucks meet less restrictive requirements without specifically calling them out but now has led to each manufacturer making vehicles as large as possible so meeting emissions restrictions is more economical.

This gets brought up on HN every time the subject comes up but it doesn't make sense. It is true that, sensibly, emissions regulations are more relaxed as vehicles get larger. But smaller vehicles are still cheaper to make and sell for lower MSRPs than the same manufacturer's larger cars, and larger cars almost always hugely outsell them. Sadly, this has meant that a lot of small cars, like the Honda Fit, have been discontinued in the US.

HN users are not representative. Kei car enthusiasts are not representative. Americans love F-150s, Tacomas, Highlanders, 4runners, RAV4s, CRVs, etc. They by-and-large buy the largest car/truck they can afford. You look up the sales numbers for this stuff and there's just no contest; e.g., CRVs outsold Fits by almost a factor of 10. The marginal gain of "parking is slightly easier in streets or unlined lots" is something most people don't care enough about to buy a smaller vehicle. They prefer the other conveniences of large cars.

Is it true that manufacturers like selling larger cars because they have higher margins? Sure; they also like to sell you on the higher trim levels of small cars for the same reason. But Americans are happily making that easy for them.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#23

Post by tourmalinetaco »

spdgg wrote: post #9
themaninthedark wrote: post #2

Given the reasoning for refusal is that the vehicles don't meet safety standards, I wonder if they will stop registering older American vehicles as well for lack of safety standards but also for emissions?

I find it funny that the safety standards are for the drivers, not everyone around them. Small trucks = not safe Massive modern trucks killing cyclists and pedestrians = very safe! (For the driver)

A small truck has just as much possibility to kill as a big truck, and in fact due to the smaller application of similar forces its more likely to seriously cripple you, even if said hit was non-fatal.

While I’m all for reducing the size of cars in USA, pretending that ”massive modern trucks” are the only ones that kill is just wrong.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#24

Post by loloquwowndueo »

Amezarak wrote: post #22
EligibleDecoy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of a quirk of emissions controls in the US. Longer wheelbases and heavier vehicles can get by with poorer emissions. It was done, at the time, to help semi trailers and other huge trucks meet less restrictive requirements without specifically calling them out but now has led to each manufacturer making vehicles as large as possible so meeting emissions restrictions is more economical.

This gets brought up on HN every time the subject comes up but it doesn't make sense. It is true that, sensibly, emissions regulations are more relaxed as vehicles get larger. But smaller vehicles are still cheaper to make and sell for lower MSRPs than the same manufacturer's larger cars, and larger cars almost always hugely outsell them. Sadly, this has meant that a lot of small cars, like the Honda Fit, have been d…

Manufacturers are also not making it easy for people to choose smaller cars.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/suv-small-car-affordable-1.7239768

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#25

Post by _ZeD_ »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #13
EligibleDecoy wrote: post #8

The hypocrisy is that if safety was the overall concern, then motorcycles would have been banned a long time ago (and I say this as someone who enjoys riding my motorcycle). I think the actual problem is that when compared to other cars in their category these kei trucks do have abysmal safety standards such as no airbags or crumple zones. Which is because there isn’t a mini truck category in the US. Basically all pi…

> if safety was the overall concern, then motorcycles would have been banned a long time ago And horse riding on the road - it’s still legal. I believe you can even ride cows in most countries Safety of the driver , mind you, should be lower priority than safety of others, I.e. pedestrians. Driver chose to drive whatever that is, but pedestrians didn’t. From that perspective motorcycles are great, they are least like…

given the reduced size, weight, and top speed, and the huge visibility of the kei cars, then it makes still less sense to ban them

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#26

Post by PetitPrince »

khafra wrote: post #6
sidewndr46 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuel economy standards, emissions standards, safety standards, & profit margins. If you want to sell cars and make money, compacts are not where it is at.

Compacts, subcompacts, and microcompacts are very popular in Europe. Is this because Europe has fewer and less restrictive standards for fuel economy, emissions, and safety? I am not an automotive policy expert, but I feel like Europe tends to regulate more than the US does.

One factor to take into account is that streets and roads are narrower (or at least feels narrower). I would be very uncomfortable driving those huge SUV where I live.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#27

Post by short_sells_poo »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #16
petesergeant wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume governance is the art of the possible, and banning motorbikes is impossible for political reasons, where banning hobby vehicles looks pretty straight-forward.

Motorbikes are hobby vehicles.

Not in a city they aren't. They are an excellent commuting tool that offers much of the flexibility of a car for a fraction of the cost and much better commute time.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#28

Post by tourmalinetaco »

reedf1 wrote: post #7

Many Japanese vehicles are banned, especially light trucks, because they are too competitive. They are often banned for trumped up reasons, mostly to protect local competition.

Yeah, what’s wrong with that? The problem is that US regulations reinforce the creation of unnecessarily large vehicles, largely as the only local option. We have no need for international cars, and inherently transporting them is bad for the environment. It makes far more sense to broaden emission standards across the board to ALL vehicles so that smaller vehicles have a larger market presence and then if international brands want access to the US market they can create US jobs by opening factories.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#29

Post by Amezarak »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #24
Amezarak wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gets brought up on HN every time the subject comes up but it doesn't make sense. It is true that, sensibly, emissions regulations are more relaxed as vehicles get larger. But smaller vehicles are still cheaper to make and sell for lower MSRPs than the same manufacturer's larger cars, and larger cars almost always hugely outsell them. Sadly, this has meant that a lot of small cars, like the Honda Fit, have been d…

Manufacturers are also not making it easy for people to choose smaller cars. https://www.cbc.ca/news/suv-small-car-affordable-1.7239768

The article doesn't really support that claim. Yes, larger vehicles have higher margins, just as higher trim levels do. But it is also true that small vehicle sales are consistently poor. Of course manufacturers aren't very interested in a low-volume low-margin market segment, which led to the tragic death of cars like the Fit.

That's why the article you linked says things like:

> Long, a sustainable transportation researcher at Simon Fraser University, and Jonn Axsen, professor of sustainable transportation at SFU, undertook a study of 1,000 SUV drivers in the Vancouver area. The study revealed that drivers "see them as superior to cars," said Long.

People are happy and willing to pay more for larger cars. Manufacturers are delighted to oblige. Given the choice between a small car and a large car, the typical consumer chooses the larger car. The fact that a small number of consumers like me prefer Honda Fits is not enough to justify their continued production.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#30

Post by ejstronge »

tourmalinetaco wrote: post #23
spdgg wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it funny that the safety standards are for the drivers, not everyone around them. Small trucks = not safe Massive modern trucks killing cyclists and pedestrians = very safe! (For the driver)

A small truck has just as much possibility to kill as a big truck, and in fact due to the smaller application of similar forces its more likely to seriously cripple you, even if said hit was non-fatal. While I’m all for reducing the size of cars in USA, pretending that ”massive modern trucks” are the only ones that kill is just wrong.

> A small truck has just as much possibility to kill as a big truck, and in fact due to the smaller application of similar forces its more likely to seriously cripple you, even if said hit was non-fatal. > While I’m all for reducing the size of cars in USA, pretending that ”massive modern trucks” are the only ones that kill is just wrong.

The argument is that a larger truck is more likely to kill - instead of resulting in injuries that can be treated. There is evidence for this.

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