You might also find this interesting: a post I wrote on the topic last year: From Gothic Invaders to Mall Goths. How an ancient Germanic tribe gave its name to a modern subculture. https://onthearts.com/p/from-gothic-invaders-to-mall-goths
They say fashion goes in cycles. That cycle is ~ 20 years to start and ~ 30!years to complete, the approximate time it takes for a generation of teenagers to raid their parents old shit. Which just so happen to hit the second hand market around the same time. 1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. Emo and goth cycles. 1964 -> 1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. First, second, third, and… fourth? waves of ska.
The Goths
21–28 of 28 posts
Re: The Goths
#22There is an excellent Goth festival in Germany, I'm visiting every year since about 2012. https://www.wave-gotik-treffen.de/english/
Re: The Goths
#23My impression is that High German evolved fairly distinctly in the Bavarian and Austrian heartlands during the age of the Holy Roman Empire, while Gothic populations were assimilated by Slavic, Bulgarian, and Romanian peoples and were eventually absorbed until the Gothic language went extinct.
Re: The Goths
#24No wonder goths expanded so much. They have very cheap infantry.
Re: The Goths
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn’t suggest that the Gothic disappeared between the Victorians and The Doors: While the Gothic didn’t disappear entirely after the Victorian Era, it was largely pushed aside by Modernism and related movements for most of the early 20th century. It was only by the 1960s that the Gothic ideal began to make a resurgence – this time via music. This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at th…
> This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at the time. Not sure what “standard history” you are relying on, but gothic horror was a major influence on movies (and other popular media like comics). Modernism is a somewat nebolous term, but German expressionism seem to be generally categorized as modernism, even when the movies are clearly gothic horror (eg Nosferatu is heavily based on Drac…
According to historian Roger Griffin, modernism can be defined as a broad cultural, social, or political initiative sustained by the ethos of "the temporality of the new". Griffin believed that modernism aspired to restore a "sense of sublime order and purpose to the contemporary world, thereby counteracting the (perceived) erosion of an overarching 'nomos', or 'sacred canopy', under the fragmenting and secularizing impact of modernity".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism
This focus on the new and future is definitely not something Gothic does, which is traditionally very focused on the past.
In architecture, for example, the Gothic lost most of its influence:
New architectural movements, sometimes related, as in the Arts and Crafts movement, and sometimes in outright opposition, such as Modernism, gained ground, and by the 1930s the architecture of the Victorian era was generally condemned or ignored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Revival_architecture
And again, the purpose of the article was to trace the term gothic through history, not to explain the influence of the Gothic in toto. These films may have been influential, but they were based on already written Gothic works, and they weren't dominant in the way Gothic architecture or literature were in the Victorian era. Gothic in the 20th century was more of an influence on other art movements (including German Expressionism), not a fully-fledged art movement itself, as it had been in the past.
Overall I agree that a line about the films would have been good to add, but I don't think it was necessarily essential to tracing the word gothic through time. The term was applied to music because of the location "in the gloomy vaulted wine cellar of the Delmonico hotel, not because of a reference to the films.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock#Characteristics
I'm not sure why this single point "doesn’t really connect the dots" for you, considering that the rest of the post covers dozens of other significant influences over two millenia.
Re: The Goths
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
Eh it’s a big topic and the post was already getting too long. You are right that mall goths are less interested in the “ethos” of the previous subculture and more interested in the surface appearance, but I think that probably applies to every subculture of modern times.
Was there a previous wave of old-school furries of which I'm unaware? (unfortunately, just about the time it becomes much easier to tell a shaggy dog story that ends with the phrase "don't you hurry with the furry with the syringe on top", it becomes much harder to expect anyone to understand the spoonerism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIG_GVE-KiE ) EDIT: well, yes, of course: Disney, Avery, Warner, etc. animator…
Re: The Goths
#27That's just wrong. It was connected, but a dead offshoot; a vestigial limb.
Re: The Goths
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at the time. Not sure what “standard history” you are relying on, but gothic horror was a major influence on movies (and other popular media like comics). Modernism is a somewat nebolous term, but German expressionism seem to be generally categorized as modernism, even when the movies are clearly gothic horror (eg Nosferatu is heavily based on Drac…
Sure, modernism could include German Expressionism, but I had in mind Art Deco, Bauhaus and Modernist architecture, along with visual art movements like Dada, De Stiji, Cubism, etc. - the things that are typically referred to by the word modernist. The qualities these things have in common tend to be distinctly different from the qualities that the Gothic has usually had. According to historian Roger Griffin, moderni…
Saying the genre was “largely pushed aside” is absurd. Everyone knows how Frankensteins monster looks. How many cultural expression have this kind of impact?
If you are relying on books which does not recognize the impact of horror movies on popular culture, you should find better books.