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SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

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Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#21
post #18
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but I feel like you have to admit there is a tragedy of the commons here -- there will always be more people who want to live somewhere than can realistically have a high-quality of life there.... Part of the reason San Francisco is so desirable is because it's iconic, it would be a great irony to make room for more people by removing what makes it special. It always felt to me like if we want more San Francisco…

What's really so iconic about it that would make it "not San Francisco" if it were removed? The Golden Gate Bridge, perhaps? Sure. Coit Tower? Maybe, but... eh? Transamerica Pyramid? Cool, but I wouldn't care much if it was gone. Palace of Fine Arts? Sure, I'd be really sad to see that go, but it's not "San Francisco". I've lived in SF for 14 years and I don't think "because it's iconic" is in my top 10 reasons for l…

As a side point, if SF was upzoned to allow, say, six-plexes where possible, one could probably sell ones property to a developer for more than it is worth now as a single family home. At the same time, the per unit cost of the six-plex would be less than your current home price. Everybody in the transactions wins: you, the builder, and the five new families. The environment wins too, as five families can live closer to where they work instead of driving, and the new home are more energy efficient.

https://www.apartments.com/303-e-43rd-st-kansas-city-mo/q2fj...

Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#22

Sad. Communities should be allowed to preserve their character and charm and preserve quality of life for their existing residents. This forced top down push for density doesn’t make sense - there is a whole country of places to live in, and yet everyone feels entitled to crowd into expensive and desirable places at the price point that fits them. It’s basically taking away from the people that have put down roots fo…

> Communities should be allowed to preserve their character and charm and preserve quality of life for their existing residents. It really doesn't look good (especially in SF) when most of those long-term residents are white and the newcomers are more demographically diverse. Pretty much all of the defining traits of segregation > It’s basically taking away from the people that have put down roots for newcomers. The…

Since when was most of SF’s folks white?

The folks complaining the most from what I remember were the Latinos?

Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#23

Sad. Communities should be allowed to preserve their character and charm and preserve quality of life for their existing residents. This forced top down push for density doesn’t make sense - there is a whole country of places to live in, and yet everyone feels entitled to crowd into expensive and desirable places at the price point that fits them. It’s basically taking away from the people that have put down roots fo…

They are only expensive and desirable because of these people.

Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#24

Sad. Communities should be allowed to preserve their character and charm and preserve quality of life for their existing residents. This forced top down push for density doesn’t make sense - there is a whole country of places to live in, and yet everyone feels entitled to crowd into expensive and desirable places at the price point that fits them. It’s basically taking away from the people that have put down roots fo…

> It’s basically taking away from the people that have put down roots for newcomers. Personally it feels unfair and unnecessary because the same people have other places in the country to choose from where they could live and work

If those existing residents don't like the changes, then they're free to follow your advice and live somewhere else.

Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#25
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This forced top down push for density You have it backwards — the push for density is bottom-up, coming from the people who want to live in SF. The top-down elements are the regulations imposed to keep the city from changing.

I think the more accurate representation is that it's coming from people who _want_ to live in SF but currently don't (due to lack of housing or unaffordable housing). Should I be allowed to push for policy changes in a city I am not a resident of?

Former San Francisco resident here. I pushed for building reform while I lived there. Will continue to vote for building reform there now, even though we got pushed out (kids....) by high prices, because we yearn to move back. I don't think there's any incongruity in my consistent position on this issue.

Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#26

Sad. Communities should be allowed to preserve their character and charm and preserve quality of life for their existing residents. This forced top down push for density doesn’t make sense - there is a whole country of places to live in, and yet everyone feels entitled to crowd into expensive and desirable places at the price point that fits them. It’s basically taking away from the people that have put down roots fo…

Preserving the community and also preserving the low tax rate at which people who bought their houses ages ago pay. If the people who “put down roots” had to pay in property taxes what the newer arrivals have to pay, many of them would be priced out as well.

Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#27

Sad. Communities should be allowed to preserve their character and charm and preserve quality of life for their existing residents. This forced top down push for density doesn’t make sense - there is a whole country of places to live in, and yet everyone feels entitled to crowd into expensive and desirable places at the price point that fits them. It’s basically taking away from the people that have put down roots fo…

If the price of homes keep rising we'll all be enjoying a life of being homeless, squatting with two dozen others inside one of those historic buildings.

Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#28

Sad. Communities should be allowed to preserve their character and charm and preserve quality of life for their existing residents. This forced top down push for density doesn’t make sense - there is a whole country of places to live in, and yet everyone feels entitled to crowd into expensive and desirable places at the price point that fits them. It’s basically taking away from the people that have put down roots fo…

> Communities should be allowed to preserve their character and charm and preserve quality of life for their existing residents.

No they shouldn't. Private property is private property. Demonstrate a specific harm like pollution or you don't get to tell other people what to do with their real-estate.

Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#29
post #16

I am generally highly skeptical of "historic" designations on buildings or other public features. Ultimately they're just used to ossify things and act as an excuse to refuse change. History is certainly valuable, and I do think we should try to preserve truly outstanding examples of history, but this sort of determination too subjective, and often the balance swings too far into a realm of preserving things of dubio…

That's another reason why land value taxation is a good idea: a regulation like designating a building as historic, will immediately lower the tax take in line with the severity of restrictions it imposes. Thus there's a nice and direct feedback loop.

(Now, you just need to arrange things so that the level of government that gets to decide which building to mark as 'historic' is also the level of government that feels a decrease in land value tax revenue. But that kind of alignment is a good idea for all kinds of policies.)

Re: SF's Historic Preservation Rules Are in Limbo, All Part of CA's Push for Housing

#30
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more accurate representation is that it's coming from people who _want_ to live in SF but currently don't (due to lack of housing or unaffordable housing). Should I be allowed to push for policy changes in a city I am not a resident of?

If the housing crisis was only localized to S.F. then state level action wouldn’t be needed. The fact that housing shortages are widespread in CA makes it a crisis that must be solved at the state level. Personally as a long time resident of SF I fight for density now in the hope that these efforts bear fruit before my 5 year old and 2 year old grow up. I want an SF where they don’t have to be ML engineers to live in…

> The fact that housing shortages are widespread in CA makes it a crisis that must be solved at the state level.

In practice you are probably right, but I'm still wondering if you are right in theory.

Let me explain: there's so much pent up demand in SF and SV that any individual location allowing more building won't make much of a dent in overall housing costs.

One can certainly see that as a problem. But it's also an enormous opportunity: real estate developers in that community can build and build and build without worrying about oversupply ever dropping prices.

A booming local construction industry would also create lots of blue collar jobs, even if it never makes a dent in housing prices. Or rather, exactly when it doesn't make a dent in prices: because then the booming local construction industry can just keep on booming forever.

Now my question is: why does it look like all cities in the area are colluding against this? What keeps even one city from breaking ranks and allowing massive amounts of construction?

Is it that they can't find ways to benefit from the extra commercial activity? (I heard that eg property taxes are capped? And they have no creative ideas for how to otherwise benefit?)

Is it that there are bay area wide mechanisms that keep communities from allowing more building?

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Btw, the whole discussion reminds me when back in the years of the Great Recession after the Global Financial crises inflation was--as hard as that is to believe today--stubbornly low, and people saw that as a problem, instead of an opportunity:

At a minimum you can have your central bank buy up the whole national debt with newly printed money, and if that still doesn't raise inflation, you can start buying up the rest of world dollar for dollar. (Eg index funds are happy to take your newly created money.)

At some point, either your country's central bank owns the world in return for some data base entries, or inflation will pick up. (If inflation picks up too much, you can always soak up some excess money by selling things off your balance sheet. Standard central bank operating procedure.)

Instead of seeing this opportunity, people mostly just.. gave up?

Btw, orthodox economists suggested more or less exactly what I laid out above to Japan during the 1990s Lost Decade, but this was not a popular policy recommendation during the 2010s.

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