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The lie of music discovery algorithms

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21–30 of 198 posts

Re: The lie of music discovery algorithms

#21
post #17

In the age of internet, engagement optimization and recommendation algorithms create a new way that we are affected by the behaviour of others. That annoying dark pattern on a piece of software you use? Because there are people who fall to it, clicking on an ad or "engaging" more. That stupid show that keeps being recommended to you? Because a lot of people just sit on the couch, watching something on the list that d…

Yess! Thank you for commenting. I am very interested in this topic. Please do share with me if you find any interesting ways to explore new music for your taste

Re: The lie of music discovery algorithms

#22
Interesting. For example how would one find a "new" Tool or Deftones? Current algorithms probably don't "pick up" not-yet-so-popular things. For example Shelton San (I found out about them via word-of-mouth), although I'm frequent user of Spotify. This means that classical promotion channels are still necessary, as otherwise things get lost in noise.

Re: The lie of music discovery algorithms

#23

No music discovery algorithm has satisfied me. All data-driven approaches make predictions based on historical data. Personally I enjoy being exposed to entirely new genres and sounds I've never heard before, instead of variations on genres I've listened to a lot. My solution: listening to NTS, an eclectic online radio station, where diverse artists create playlists.

I’m checking that right now, thank you!!

Re: The lie of music discovery algorithms

#25

how does it technically work?

The setup is pretty basic. I've built a NextJS app, for the LLM model I am using open AI gpt-4-turbo and sending the images there directly without any database for images. I did a little prompting to get the same output everytime and when I get the output I make search on the Spotify API, find the songs and create the playlist with them on your own authenticated spotify account. Likewise I also don't have a database…

To keep your options open, it might be worth switching from GPT to either Gemini or Llama as OpenAI official policies prevent you from training on your logs with the argument this training is “illegal, harmful, or abusive,” so you’d never be able to fine tune or train your own AI in the future on your data or help others do the same.

If being permanently locked into a single intelligence service (or risking getting cut off or sued) is unacceptable for you as for me then OpenAI terms today are not acceptable. Yeah yeah maybe they won’t go after you, but why miss the opportunity for malicious compliance? Ditto Claude. Try a specialized model for your use case instead.

Gemini has no such customer noncompete, and with llama 3.1 meta removed theirs last week.

Re: The lie of music discovery algorithms

#26

Music discovery has never worked for me, for the simple reason it's the lyrics, not the music. I listen to anyone speaking truth, (the truth I believe, of course), and that gives me a wide disjoint range of music, but they are all singing about political social truths. Marvin Gaye, Public Enemy, Rage Against The Machine, Beyonce, The Stranglers, The Jam, Psychic TV... It's the lyrics, and now today, we finally have t…

I only pay attention to melodies and rarely can even discern the lyrics unless I have them written out as I listen. Even relatively clean vocals like Johnny Cash just wash over me without being understood. The words for me become just another instrument that can play notes. If I can always predict the next series it is boring, if I never can, it is too challenging. In the middle I get dopamine whether I predict the notes or not. The right series of notes can make me feel such varied emotions with no words necessary.

Music discovery used to work for me with pandora, nothing else has. I have no idea if they had better algorithms, or just a better catalog. It doesn't seem to work as well as it once did either.

Tl;dr I don't think it is simply your preference for lyrical content over melodic content that causes the algorithms to fail. They are just bad.

Re: The lie of music discovery algorithms

#27
The most interesting thing in this, to me, is just how differently people perceive and enjoy music. I find that the algorithms work pretty well for me. But novelty in melody or rhythm are not something I care about (I literally can not remember an instance of even thinking about how a melody in a new song might go, let alone predicting it). The kind of “newness” that the algorithms provide work exactly right for how I enjoy music. But it makes a ton of sense that if you are more driven by finding new melodies, they would not work well for you.

Re: The lie of music discovery algorithms

#28

This is great to hear, though I'm curious why photos on your phone / pinterest would be relevant to a recommendation system? Surely the biggest signal would be what Spotify already uses: the features of various relevant factors (your previous listening sessions, your current session, what other similar sessions look like, etc.), that said, their recommendation system is surprisingly terrible given how much easier mus…

I think spotify's playlists are quite decent. I think they used to be a lot better than they are now, but I suspect that most recommendation systems decay over time. I suspect they don't handle the recommendation feedback very well, so they can start off introducing people to new things, but then become a bit more static and just reinforce the same habits over and over.

I think YouTube's recommendations used to be excellent, especially for music, but I've personally found it to be terrible recently. It no longer recommends anything new to me, and I suspect that it's way over-tuned. If I see a video that looks mildly interesting I'm a bit hesitant to watch it, because I don't want YT to decide that it should become 50% of my feed for the next week. Which from the recommendation system's perspective is just weakening the signal I'm feeding to it even further.

Re: The lie of music discovery algorithms

#29
Even though the idea of recommendations is anything but new, literally nothing and nowhere works as expected. The only thing that comes close is based on the concept of neighbours, as implemented at Last.fm or RateYourMusic.

I don't understand why is it so hard to offer something along these lines:

  1. Define dominant user preferences by clustering and segmenting the field of listened genres.
  2. Build a list of relevant "neighbours":
    2.1 Manually added users/friends
    2.2 For each of the dominant genre preferences, find users with a high level of artist intersection within that genre and add them
  3. Now, for a "find similar" query:
    3.1 Define a reasonable time window
    3.2 For each neighbour, find points in time when they listened to the queried track/artist
    3.3 Build a list of tracks/artist from the defined window around the points found
    3.4 Filter tracks/artists that are too "distant" on the general genre/tag map, or lie outside of the user's dominant preferences (with a degree of boundary feathering, perhaps)
    3.5 Filter if similar to negative part of the query
    3.6 If novelty is required: filter artists/tracks according to the degree of their presence in the user's history

Re: The lie of music discovery algorithms

#30
post #17

In the age of internet, engagement optimization and recommendation algorithms create a new way that we are affected by the behaviour of others. That annoying dark pattern on a piece of software you use? Because there are people who fall to it, clicking on an ad or "engaging" more. That stupid show that keeps being recommended to you? Because a lot of people just sit on the couch, watching something on the list that d…

Yess! Thank you for commenting. I am very interested in this topic. Please do share with me if you find any interesting ways to explore new music for your taste

Same as GP. It takes times. Unless it’s party mode, I only listen to albums. To find new music, it takes time mostly. I decide to listen to a new genre and I seek a playlist or a compilation curated by someone. If I find someone I like, I check their albums. I also checkout the recommendations on bandcamp (people vote with their wallet there). Then there are forums and polls, and I may decide to try something out of the blue.

The more you curate, the more you define your own taste. It’s then easier to describe what you like in a music and triage.

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