Live data from Hacker News

Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

openai.com

21–30 of 33 posts

Re: Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

#21

Beautiful! OpenAI isn't just training a model to produce more-verifiable correct answers -- it's leveraging an adversarial relationship to train a model that's better at being correct, and also a model that's better at deceiving / being wrong. This is the key. There are three agents here: * A "verifier" (a small model, whose job it is to discern correct answers from incorrect answers) * A "helpful prover" (blue team,…

Some may be reminded of the Magi supercomputers in NERV, but here's a mnemonic inspired by the precogs in Minority Report:

1) helpful prover : the good twin

2) sneaky prover : the evil twin

3) verifier : the foster sister

Re: Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

#22
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ELI6 why SPAG is better than just the default pretraining method (token context statistics?) of an LLM.

The red and blue agents are effectively unlimited sources of true and false examples so you can get far more efficient scale than you can by pre training with labelled inputs. It’s also far more targeted on correct/incorrect rather than a notion of answer quality which doesn’t directly get at hallucination vs reality.

But how do we know the answer you gave us wasn't generated by the sneaky prover? :)

Re: Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

#23
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The red and blue agents are effectively unlimited sources of true and false examples so you can get far more efficient scale than you can by pre training with labelled inputs. It’s also far more targeted on correct/incorrect rather than a notion of answer quality which doesn’t directly get at hallucination vs reality.

This is impressive, but what prevents the blue agent from generating an incorrect proof of a "true example"? What prevents the red agent from generating a correct disproof of a "false example"? I'm curious how they managed to generate a truly unlimited source of correctly labeled examples.

> "but what prevents the blue agent from generating an incorrect proof of a "true example"?

That's the role of the Verifier. It's not going to be perfect, and I'm sure some incorrect proofs of true examples slip through, but it's good enough to increase the quality of the model overall.

> "What prevents the red agent from generating a correct disproof of a "false example"?

And on the other side, it's counterbalanced by the rules engine (math) that can determine absolutely whether or not the right answer is given at the end.

The Red and the Blue agents are held in check by the tension between the math engine and the verifier, and they are free to fight back-and-forth within those parameters as long as they are able. Eventually, I think the Red agent loses the ability to attack effectively, and so that's the big limit on OpenAI's arrangement. This particular game isn't balanced enough for this training loop to continue infinitely.

Re: Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

#24

Beautiful! OpenAI isn't just training a model to produce more-verifiable correct answers -- it's leveraging an adversarial relationship to train a model that's better at being correct, and also a model that's better at deceiving / being wrong. This is the key. There are three agents here: * A "verifier" (a small model, whose job it is to discern correct answers from incorrect answers) * A "helpful prover" (blue team,…

What do you mean by “true” RL?

True RL is not limited by being tethered to human-annotated data, and it is able to create novel approaches to solve problems. True RL requires a very clear objective function (such as the rules of Go, or Starcraft, or Taboo!) that the model can evaluate itself against.

Andrej Karpathy talks about the difference between RLHF and "true" RL here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3b-JASoPi0&t=1618s

> The other thing is that we're doing reinforcement learning from human feedback (RLHF), but that's like a super weak form of reinforcement learning. I think... what is the equivalent in AlphaGo for RLHF? What is the reward model? What I call it is a "vibe check". Imagine if you wanted to train an AlphaGo RLHF, it would be giving two people two boards and asking: "Which one do you prefer?" -- and then you would take those labels and you would train the model and then you would RL against that. What are the issues with that? It's like, number one -- that's just vibes of the board. That's what you're training against. Number two, if it's a reward model that's a neural net, then it's very easy to overfit to that reward model for the model you're optimizing over, and it's going to find all these spurious ways of hacking that massive model is the problem.

> AlphaGo gets around these problems because they have a very clear objective function, and you can RL against it.

> So RLHF is nowhere near [true] RL -- it's silly. And the other thing is that imitation is super-silly. RLHF is a nice improvement, but it's still silly, and I think people need to look for better ways of training these models so that it's in the loop with itself and its own psychology, and I think there will probably be unlocks in that direction.

In contrast, something like true RL would look like the Multi-Agent Hide-And-Seek training loop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kopoLzvh5jY

Re: Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

#26
interesting, but I don't agree that if we see the "token reasoning" chain it somehow explains how the model got the final answer. what if we trained deceiver models that would provide a sound chain of explanation but then perform some kind of deception and output an incorrect answer? for me personally, explainability has to show how the answer arose from the model mechanics, not sequential model outputs

Re: Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

#27

interesting, but I don't agree that if we see the "token reasoning" chain it somehow explains how the model got the final answer. what if we trained deceiver models that would provide a sound chain of explanation but then perform some kind of deception and output an incorrect answer? for me personally, explainability has to show how the answer arose from the model mechanics, not sequential model outputs

> what if we trained deceiver models that would provide a sound chain of explanation but then perform some kind of deception and output an incorrect answer?

You're right on target! That's exactly what they're doing in the paper. They train three models -- a verifier (that rates answers as sounding correct or sounding wrong), a "helpful prover" (that provides correct answers), and "sneaky prover" (that provides incorrect answers that attempt to deceive the verifier into scoring its answer highly).

This adversarial relationship between the "helpful prover" and the "sneaky prover" is the cool part of the paper (IMO).

Re: Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

#28
post #22
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The red and blue agents are effectively unlimited sources of true and false examples so you can get far more efficient scale than you can by pre training with labelled inputs. It’s also far more targeted on correct/incorrect rather than a notion of answer quality which doesn’t directly get at hallucination vs reality.

But how do we know the answer you gave us wasn't generated by the sneaky prover? :)

At least in the context of this game, we essentially check the answer with a calculator (which the Verifier program doesn't have access to).

Re: Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

#29
post #2

Funny that when I reached the "Key Findings" section, my brain immediately parsed it as ChatGPT output. Maybe it's the bullet points, the word choice, or just the font...

There appears to be a coherent effort among the general populace , conscious or unconscious, to shape discourse going forward to look more ChatGPT style in general. Words like “delve”, “crucial” etc have become more common even among real people in face to face communication and in record time. Much as I find it overly formal, I support it on the grounds that it frustrates attempts to “detect” if LLMs are used and th…

> it frustrates attempts to “detect” if LLMs are used and that is very good.

Why is that good?

Re: Prover-Verifier Games improve legibility of language model outputs

#30
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There appears to be a coherent effort among the general populace , conscious or unconscious, to shape discourse going forward to look more ChatGPT style in general. Words like “delve”, “crucial” etc have become more common even among real people in face to face communication and in record time. Much as I find it overly formal, I support it on the grounds that it frustrates attempts to “detect” if LLMs are used and th…

> it frustrates attempts to “detect” if LLMs are used and that is very good. Why is that good?

If you are asking, you’re the kind of person it’s designed to frustrate. Good. Stay frustrated.
Post reply on HN