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Human history in the very long run (2021)

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Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#21

Post by mistermann »

darby_nine wrote: post #8
Larrikin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did we lose that you think would make us happier? I can only think of things certain people lost that would make them happier at the expense of making others as miserable as possible.

> What did we lose that you think would make us happier? I strongly suspect any example I provide will be attacked, so I recommend to use your imagination. I think you can do better than this. If you really want an example I recommend Kim Stanley Robinson's Shaman , who can write better than I can, who is thoughtful in his choice in how he uses research versus poetic license, who has already responded to critique on…

> so I recommend to use your imagination

I think (certain important portions of) modern day Human's curiosity/imagination capabilities have atrophied, since we know everything. Or maybe more accurately, they've been concentrated in a narrow, specialized range: knowing everything.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#22

Post by BriggyDwiggs42 »

cratermoon wrote: post #15
adrianN wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a brutal philosophy.

And the people doing no work taking food from the people who did the work to farm it? What do you call that?

If they take it, theft. If its willingly given, charity.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#23

Post by conception »

Larrikin wrote: post #6
darby_nine wrote: post #3

The downside of using modern metrics to estimate the happiness of past people is that you won't ever measure the stuff that we've lost. We'll never really know, and you should look at all such comparisons with deep suspicion (especially eyeballing you, Steven Pinker)

What did we lose that you think would make us happier? I can only think of things certain people lost that would make them happier at the expense of making others as miserable as possible.

Free time.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#24

Post by [deleted] »

darby_nine wrote: post #3

The downside of using modern metrics to estimate the happiness of past people is that you won't ever measure the stuff that we've lost. We'll never really know, and you should look at all such comparisons with deep suspicion (especially eyeballing you, Steven Pinker)

[deleted]

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#25

Post by Retric »

Larrikin wrote: post #6
darby_nine wrote: post #3

The downside of using modern metrics to estimate the happiness of past people is that you won't ever measure the stuff that we've lost. We'll never really know, and you should look at all such comparisons with deep suspicion (especially eyeballing you, Steven Pinker)

What did we lose that you think would make us happier? I can only think of things certain people lost that would make them happier at the expense of making others as miserable as possible.

There’s more obvious things people already mentioned, but for less obvious examples.

A night sky without light pollution and darker nights from a sleep perspective.

Large families and extended families. Your great grandparents likely had 5+ siblings.

100ppm lower CO2 levels had a meaningful impact on cognitive and physical performance.

Less intrusive advertising such as pumping gas without videos popping up.

Natural sounds and smells in a world without massive pollution.

Edit: It’s easy to say the modern world is better based on metrics which exclude meaningful downsides. Job security doesn’t get tracked the way unemployment rate does.

In 1790 individual members in the House of Representatives represented 39,000 people (though a low percentage of that could actually vote), today it’s closer to 800,000. But nobody is saying your voice is less important every year.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#26

Post by MattGaiser »

conception wrote: post #23
Larrikin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did we lose that you think would make us happier? I can only think of things certain people lost that would make them happier at the expense of making others as miserable as possible.

Free time.

Arguably you could have more free time than ever before and maintain a similar standard of living to historical standards in many places, but that option isn’t popular.

Especially true of software engineers. Take a mediocre paying remote job at a mediocre non-tech firm, work 2 hours a day as the work is easy, and spend the rest on yourself.

But I’ve never heard of anyone doing that.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#27

Post by southernplaces7 »

DaoVeles wrote: post #14
Larrikin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did we lose that you think would make us happier? I can only think of things certain people lost that would make them happier at the expense of making others as miserable as possible.

Now these are cherry picked which in my previous comment on this is cheating a little but I will give it a try. At a personal level, tools/equipment that is self serviceable and can be maintained for a long life span. While some of this is still around, it is much more difficult to find. At a moderate level. More time for family and community, unfortunately this one area that looking back we have slid backwards in. W…

Really? These are the things to lament having lost in comparison to all the things that humans have gained?

Today you can still buy simple tools and equipment that are very long lasting, or you can choose modern conveniences. Either way, you actually have that choice, and buying either won't cost you a huge percentage of your wages as was the case in preindustrial times in which any manufactured or produced goods were enormously expensive by tendency.

People in modern times have more time for community and family than at any other point in history. This applies especially if they don't pursue the kind of material hamster wheel that many do. Almost anyone wanting to live at the subsistence levels of preindustrial societies could do so today with far less work than the people at that time endured to achieve the same. I think you're grossly understating how hard and long the work hours just to feed a family and literally keep it from death were prior to (at the most) 200 years ago.

As for your last point, the science on climate change doesn't predict the end of the world at all. Go read the IPCC's own worst case scenarios. They certainly don't predict our extinction. What's more, do you really think people in the 17th century felt any ability to plan 7 generations ahead, or easily avoided living in grimly filthy conditions at a level that was superior to today?

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#28

Post by Retric »

MattGaiser wrote: post #26
conception wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free time.

Arguably you could have more free time than ever before and maintain a similar standard of living to historical standards in many places, but that option isn’t popular. Especially true of software engineers. Take a mediocre paying remote job at a mediocre non-tech firm, work 2 hours a day as the work is easy, and spend the rest on yourself. But I’ve never heard of anyone doing that.

Individual people could in theory have more free time, but at scale our economy is dependent on people working long hours etc. Someone’s got to be awake at 3am for a hospital emergency room to function 24/7. Our convince often directly requires someone to suffer.

Re: Human history in the very long run (2021)

#29

Post by Yodel0914 »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #4

Is there any writer who criticizes Marx on his own terms? Marx agreed that quality of life can improve under capitalism. The whole point was a ethical/social critique of mismatched incentives and power imbalances of such an arrangement. It doesn't matter if life improves if the only choices one has in life is either live under the power imbalance of wage labor or extract value from those who do. If folks can be blame…

I'm very much not a Marxist, but I think he is remarkably undervalued for his analysis of capitalism, particularly how specialization inherently leads to meaninglessness, the dissolution of family and social structures etc.

His plans for how to address the shortcomings of capitalism are, um, flawed. But the analysis itself is incredibly insightful.

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