Live data from Hacker News

I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

kalzumeus.com

21–30 of 88 posts

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#21
post #19
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phones just don't make a good analog to computers with a robust file system browser. My experience is if you're downloading something on a phone, it's never going be used again. It will sit there until a factory reset. How many restaurant menus have I downloaded read once and never cleared off? I don't know. I also don't care. If I did care, I would want to use "Save As..." and save to google drive.

Phones have as robust file system browsers as desktop computers. It's probably just that the users of phones are not that "robust" and organized to care where the files are.

I think you are missing a step in your conclusion there. The reason users aren't as robust in organizing where their files come is because file browsing on phones isn't as robust.

On the android side the file browser that comes with the phone (if any) is bare bones. This combined with various sandboxing can make it pretty annoying to know exactly where your files end up.

Then there is the fact that the small UI on phones simply isn't all that great for browsing a large list of files.

So, putting it squarely on users isn't correct imho.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#22

Now that websites can use the File System Access API to load and save files, the Desktop is "solved" for me. Everybody can use my software simply by opening the url in their browser. The new challenge is phones. Mobile browsers do not support the File System Access API. What is a solution to this? Is there a reputable service that converts a web page into an Android/iOS app so that it can load and save files?

File system access API is a chromium feature.

The ability to access the native filesystem (via showOpenFilePicker()) is indeed only available in Chromium.

For Firefox and Safari users, one can offer a fallback via "download file" and "upload file" functionality. Which is clunky, because it does not reliably remember the directory. So the user often has to navigate to the correct dir again. Also it does not offer to save with the same filename by default. So the user will be offered to download "myfile(2).txt" or something instead. But at least it works and you can tell your users to use Chromium for a better experience.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#25
Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted.

The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes.

I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler.

I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not.

I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox. It did not work in Safari, it did not work in Chrome.

Turns out in Safari, my Ad Blocker was hijacking my click handler. Chrome, still not sure what’s happening there.

But I projected what happened in Safari out to the wild. “Can’t get your app to work.” Except instead of a 50 line experiment, it’s a gazillion lines of God knows what 87 levels removed from whatever code I actually wrote.

Cross browser Hell. It’s supposed to be a sandbox only to find out the cat got there first.

And I give up. Again. It’s not my livelihood. It’s a hobby. I encountered these quickly enough to thwart me before I’ve actually invested any real time. Like starting out on a vacation and you have a flat tire and the drain plug pops out before you get out of town. Maybe there’s a cosmic message here.

And I feel stupid. Obviously folks manage, but I keep getting knocked down and kicked.

The idea of pain free distribution via a PWA is really alluring. I’d like it to work. But it seems every time I get back up, the lights go out again and the corners of the cabinets seek my head.

But then I think back to my rock climbing days, a friend used to climb in shorts. And I asked didn’t it hurt when he used his knees? He answered “it’s not supposed to hurt?”

Is it supposed to hurt?

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#26
post #21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phones have as robust file system browsers as desktop computers. It's probably just that the users of phones are not that "robust" and organized to care where the files are.

I think you are missing a step in your conclusion there. The reason users aren't as robust in organizing where their files come is because file browsing on phones isn't as robust. On the android side the file browser that comes with the phone (if any) is bare bones. This combined with various sandboxing can make it pretty annoying to know exactly where your files end up. Then there is the fact that the small UI on ph…

Total Commander is great but there are tons of real file explorers for any user "robust" enough. I think what user above is pointing out what we have all noticed, people browsing the web from a phone are usually younger, less intelligent and unrefined enough to be better off not given access to the file system .

1. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ghisler.an...

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#27
Browser-based software and desktop applications share some overlap but as the 15 years since the article have shown, that overlap isn't complete or even overly substantial (and thus desktop applications are as prevalent as ever). Just as a hammer and a nailgun are both tools that allow us to effectively build a structure, they both have their niches, benefits, and drawbacks. To pretend otherwise is simply juvenile and shortsighted.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#28

Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted. The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes. I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler. I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not. I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox.…

Developers like you and I are a dying breed. We remember writing applications for operating systems that had straightforward APIs, and OS developers that worked hard to ensure any app which used those APIs would not break.

Most "full-stack" developers I know that write web apps have literally never written a line of C++ in their life, let alone written a rich text editor using an object oriented desktop GUI API.

They don't know it's not supposed to hurt.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#29

Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted. The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes. I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler. I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not. I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox.…

To be fair, that's one of the reasons why libraries like jQuery and React exist: to smooth over the difference between browsers.

Even today, big chunk of React is masking the subtle differences in event handling and other things. And whilst it forces you into a paradigm, I've never had a bug caused by the internals of React that I've had to dig into. But maybe I'm lucky or only do simple stuff?

As to it hurting, I guess I'd say, use the protective equipment! Sure, it can be bulky and awkward occasionally, but it works and it's often better than the alternatives.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#30

Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted. The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes. I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler. I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not. I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox.…

I think it just used to be a lot worse. Sure Web ui isn't great, but like in your list of browsers your complaining about you don't even have internet Explorer, let alone multiple versions of it. Docs are better, apis have more features, browsers auto update and nag to do it, libraries and frameworks for what ever coding style you prefer
Post reply on HN