"We plead guilty for our poor test coverage"
Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#22Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#23What does it mean for a corporation to plead guilty? Does it mean that there is evidence to establish a crime beyond reasonable doubt, but there is insufficient evidence to implicate any employees in particular?
I don't think if the company is found guilty it means people won't get prosecuted. I would think the contrary is true. IANAL
I expect that this is part of the plea deal, though: the company pleads guilty, on the condition that key people get immunity.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#24So Boeing is a felon, but at the same time nobody is going to jail.
Maybe there should be some similar effect for corporations. Maybe ban then from giving out dividends of performing stock buy backs until sentence is served. Here I think something reasonably light like 10 to 50 year per victim non concurrent would do the trick.
Don't be ridiculous. Yeah, we truly need consequences for corporations (and arguably their leaders) that isn't just cost of doing business, but the upper end of your suggested sentence is a span longer than written history.
Wanting a harsh sentence is fine, but lets limit it something we can likely see done before the end of our civilization in its current form.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#25Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is -- and doesn't just get replaced by removing one or two people.
What does it take? You have to dismantle a company before it changes these kinds of deep-rooted issues? Or can a government penalty call for that? That is hard to achieve. Who's going to change the evaluation procedures that HR has in place to measure what rating or bonus you get this year? That seems to me as important as who is CEO.
None of the penalties courts mete out (short of dissolution/fined into bankruptcy) seem to be able to achieve this level of change needed.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#26"The guilty plea would brand the planemaker a felon and could complicate its ability to sell products to the U.S. government. About 32% of Boeing’s nearly $78 billion in revenue last year came from its defense, space and security unit." Well that's a fun little fact
Banks are declared “too big to fail”. Banks! How can a bank be so important, and ostensibly private, that it can’t fail and let its shareholders take their licks?
There is no world - none - literally no possible universe - that Boeing cannot sell to the government, or that it fails, or that its planes get grounded indefinitely, or anything even remotely close to this outcome.
There are 2 plane makers of appreciable size on earth, Boeing and Airbus. They are essentially government owned enterprises.
Boeing has made a strategic decision and nothing of consequence whatsoever will come of this. Maybe a few people go to jail for a few months. That’s literally it
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think if the company is found guilty it means people won't get prosecuted. I would think the contrary is true. IANAL
I expect that this is part of the plea deal, though: the company pleads guilty, on the condition that key people get immunity.
So those who catch the money because "they are the ones making the decisions and taking the blame" will only get the former and not the latter?
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m sure we can come up with national security reasons to hire convicted felons with their own lobbyists and captured administrators.
The convicted felon in the White House next year will make sure his fellow felons get what they want.
Let's hope not.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#29Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…
Companies are persons, except they are not.
They cannot die. They cannot go to prison.
This concept of a moral person is a totally unfair advantage that they exploit again and again.
Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m sure we can come up with national security reasons to hire convicted felons with their own lobbyists and captured administrators.
The convicted felon in the White House next year will make sure his fellow felons get what they want.
If such a convicted felon were to pardon themselves, would they be a convicted felon any more?