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Indonesia’s Emergence

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Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#21

Post by DoingIsLearning »

kamikitakami wrote: post #13

[flagged]

The atrocities carried by Indonesians to Indonesians slip through your comments. The religious persecution of non-muslims in Papua and Bali, and the literal genocide in East Timour.

Reminder that the "pacification campaigns" genocide carried out by Indonesian military on East Timour _civilians_ only seized in 1999 (25 years ago) after UN peace forces intervention.

In 1991, Indonesian soldiers opened fire on a peaceful crowd of 2500 people gathering at a memorial mass Santa Cruz Cemitery. It is documented that at least 250 people were killed point blank.

It takes a very special kind of evil to open fire on a packed crowd of unarmed civilians at a memorial mass. Their only crime was carrying FRETILIN resistance flag and being Catholic in a muslim majority country.

Before whataboutism accusation, I agree that former colonists should own their mistakes. But equally it is up to a People to take care of their People and not keep pointing to the past for blame.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#22

Post by EdwardDiego »

csomar wrote: post #19
defrost wrote: post #6

The US and UN sanctioned the Act of No Choice , a rigged "vote" that saw Indonesia take over West Papua and continue with a largely unreported brutality to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Free_Choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_conflict

Most of the independence stories are complete B.S. They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies. It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Indonesia could have been 20-30 separate countries. The punchline is that this is hurting the US even more now as that keeping these governments ali…

> It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers.

Yes, but, colonial rule was a) not at all sustainable b) probably thoroughly corrupt in favour of different rulers and c) directly responsible for the shape of Indonesian politics today.

So, yeah.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#23

Post by EdwardDiego »

arp242 wrote: post #9
defrost wrote: post #6

The US and UN sanctioned the Act of No Choice , a rigged "vote" that saw Indonesia take over West Papua and continue with a largely unreported brutality to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Free_Choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_conflict

Indonesia in general is somewhat of a colonial project. Sukarno had large visions of a great Indonesian empire, and what the people who actually lived there thought of that wasn't really his main concern. Arguably the occupation of West-Papua is the worst of that. Also because there's just so little attention to it.

East Timor was particularly bad.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#24

Post by defrost »

csomar wrote: post #19
defrost wrote: post #6

The US and UN sanctioned the Act of No Choice , a rigged "vote" that saw Indonesia take over West Papua and continue with a largely unreported brutality to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Free_Choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_conflict

Most of the independence stories are complete B.S. They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies. It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Indonesia could have been 20-30 separate countries. The punchline is that this is hurting the US even more now as that keeping these governments ali…

They (most of SE Asia) were enabled by the Japanese to kick the Europeans out of their colonies.

Never mind that the Japanese lost or that a good number of SE Asian countries weren't fans of Japan, they saw first hand that the Europeans could be pushed aside.

Many countries in the region post WWII pursued citizen lead democracies that expressed interest in socialist policy | ideals; these didn't fare well with post war European colonial powers pissing in US ears and encouraging coups and pro US military dictators.

The US|UN aligning with Indonesia against Dutch interests is one example that seems to break that pattern, however US mining interests and US anti communist interests aligned in not wanting a war of Indo Vs Dutch that would send Indo back to the communists and ruin chances of huge US owned mined in W.Papua.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#26

Post by thriftwy »

Log_out_ wrote: post #17
einszwei wrote: post #5

Indonesia's current political climate cannot be understood without understanding the 1965 Coup that shaped it. I recommend "The Jakarta Method: Washington's Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World" book for people looking to understand how the coup was orchestrated and what followed it.

Another colonized killing colonizer masskilling when the powers shift. What can be expected to happen for example in xinjang if the current han-empire fails? The politics are decoration on top of a nasty locals vs outsiders struggle? Tons of powderkegs like this exist around the world on ex-empires shores. Balkans are always ready to explode to right ancient wrongs. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XTXfOPIFAok&t=1s CIA…

I don't think many of Indonesian communists being killed were colonizers by ethnicity or social status.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#27

Post by rezaprima »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #21
kamikitakami wrote: post #13

[flagged]

The atrocities carried by Indonesians to Indonesians slip through your comments. The religious persecution of non-muslims in Papua and Bali, and the literal genocide in East Timour. Reminder that the "pacification campaigns" genocide carried out by Indonesian military on East Timour _civilians_ only seized in 1999 (25 years ago) after UN peace forces intervention. In 1991, Indonesian soldiers opened fire on a peacefu…

Somehow you misuse/abuse "religion" card. Muslims are minority both in Bali and Papua.

And East Timor killing has nothing to do with their religion.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#28

Post by bboygravity »

defrost wrote: post #14
Apocryphon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Indonesia is hardly alone as a republic to have elected an appalling character for a leader. If anything, they're somewhat late to this past decade's wave.

Late? They were early adopters of appalling character leaders, Suharto was elected in 1968 after seizing power and self appointing in 1967. He was repeatedly elected for thirty years (with varying amounts of opposition and rigging during those decades).

You left out the bit where he murdered over a million or so unarmed civilians for possibly being communists.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#29

Post by krageon »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #22
csomar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the independence stories are complete B.S. They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies. It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Indonesia could have been 20-30 separate countries. The punchline is that this is hurting the US even more now as that keeping these governments ali…

> It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Yes, but, colonial rule was a) not at all sustainable b) probably thoroughly corrupt in favour of different rulers and c) directly responsible for the shape of Indonesian politics today. So, yeah.

The point is that these colonies were first fucked by being colonies and then fucked during the process of not being colonies anymore. Nobody is implying colonial rule is better.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#30

Post by krageon »

thriftwy wrote: post #26
Log_out_ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another colonized killing colonizer masskilling when the powers shift. What can be expected to happen for example in xinjang if the current han-empire fails? The politics are decoration on top of a nasty locals vs outsiders struggle? Tons of powderkegs like this exist around the world on ex-empires shores. Balkans are always ready to explode to right ancient wrongs. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XTXfOPIFAok&t=1s CIA…

I don't think many of Indonesian communists being killed were colonizers by ethnicity or social status.

Certainly not in 1965, approximately twenty years after they became independent. There were no colonizers left by then, everyone the Indonesians saw that way either fled or was murdered in the street by 1947 or so.
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