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Why do we still teach people to calculate?

freakonomics.com

21–30 of 89 posts

Re: Why do we still teach people to calculate?

#21
post #3

It's interesting to discuss mathematical literacy with primary school teachers, mathematicians, statisticians, data scientists. I do periodically. Primary school teachers respect core fundamentals as kids acquire "mental muscle memory" and realize they have to both create some axiomatic knowledge (axiomatic in as much as you know 9x9 is 81 from rote recall, not because of a belief in inductive reasoning) as well as t…

> Mathematicians are very much in davis/hersh "what is mathematics anyway" This reminds me of getting my CS degree in the early 2000s, then slowly realizing that my comp-sci program had taught me lots of interesting things about how computers and programs work, and essentially nothing about how to write code for a living. Also reminds me of playing Dominion (the card game) with another student, me saying "Okay, I've…

I got my degree in the mid 90's and let me tell you - high school guidance counsellors in the 1980's had no clue at all what computer science was.

I arrived at university expecting to be writing a lot of programs and was soon struggling with a heavy load of mathematics and proofs. Our introduction to computer programming professor made it clear that that class was the only one where we would be taught to program. Computer science, he said, was mostly done with paper and pencil.

It wasn't quite true. We eventually did a lot of programming, but it was nothing like I was expecting.

Re: Why do we still teach people to calculate?

#23
post #2

Because you need to be able to run numbers in your head for a lot of practical tasks, and inability to do napkin math can cost you very dearly

And calculators get broken very quickly on construction sites. And you must be capable of adding and subtracting and finding the LCD and GCD of fractions to read a tape measure in US customary units.

What is going on with your tape measures? Confused european over here.

Re: Why do we still teach people to calculate?

#24
post #3

It's interesting to discuss mathematical literacy with primary school teachers, mathematicians, statisticians, data scientists. I do periodically. Primary school teachers respect core fundamentals as kids acquire "mental muscle memory" and realize they have to both create some axiomatic knowledge (axiomatic in as much as you know 9x9 is 81 from rote recall, not because of a belief in inductive reasoning) as well as t…

> Mathematicians are very much in davis/hersh "what is mathematics anyway" This reminds me of getting my CS degree in the early 2000s, then slowly realizing that my comp-sci program had taught me lots of interesting things about how computers and programs work, and essentially nothing about how to write code for a living. Also reminds me of playing Dominion (the card game) with another student, me saying "Okay, I've…

> Dude was a math grad student. I narrowly restrained myself from saying ...

Do not show restraint, and neither will I. For I am a mathematician, not a fucking calculator.

But once, early in undergrad, I was capable of multiplying 4-digit numbers rather quickly. But tallying never seemed useful except while grading exams -- during which my brain populates a lookup table over the course of an hour, and then I can tally small sums without hesitation. But after that day of grading, the lookup table is flushed for more important uses of short term memory.

Re: Why do we still teach people to calculate?

#25
The only time I said "why don't we just use a calculator" in school was during the oddly specific focus on integration techniques in calculus (trig substitution etc). Seems like the problems were carefully set up to be solvable that way, but IRL you'd actually need a computer.

Re: Why do we still teach people to calculate?

#26
He is making a really long winded point I'm not sure I completely understand, so feel free to correct me if I am off here, but I could not really disagree more.

While there is value in emphasizing things like defining/abstracting a problem rather than calculating the result of it, things like the "algorithm" typically taught to elementary schoolers to do long division is pretty much how you would naively/algorithmically program a division operator that can give a remainder. The multiplication "algorithm" given to me at a young age was what first gave me the insight into the connection between addition and multiplication. Abstracting this away in education could not possibly be doing society, math, or computation any service whatsoever, at least not in the way (I think?) he is imagining.

I do think there is value to asking whether a problem needs to be solved or redefined or abstracted in a different manner. I had a calculus teacher in college a long time ago that had a really hilarious way of emphasizing this - he'd often bury "trap" questions into his tests that looked really simple but would test your knowledge of a simple algebraic or trigonometric trick he'd only covered during lecture, and lack of knowledge of this trick would lead one down a hopeless 20+ page response to the problem, to the point where if you found yourself going off the rails with a complex solution, you knew you messed up somewhere. This forced me to look at the problem from a variety angles to see if I could solve it in a more clever, general, or simpler way, or if it could be rewritten (this was usually the correct way to solve it). I really valued that, even years and years later, but maybe that's not the kind of thing Wolfram is getting after in this interview.

Re: Why do we still teach people to calculate?

#27
to me this seems very ill-thought through, and doesn't feel like they actually remember what math was like. they are suggesting letting the computers do the computation part, but we already do that once that skill has been mastered. i.e.: simple calculators are allowed in calculous exams.

the problem with bad ideas in education is the system might be stupid enough to follow through with it, like that new math nonsense.

Re: Why do we still teach people to calculate?

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And calculators get broken very quickly on construction sites. And you must be capable of adding and subtracting and finding the LCD and GCD of fractions to read a tape measure in US customary units.

What is going on with your tape measures? Confused european over here.

Customary units are given in fractions of an inch. Eg half, quarter, eighth, sixteenth etc. So you’re dealing with simple fractions. That is why I buy tape measures that also have metric scale - to sidestep all that bullshit entirely when adding, multiplying, dividing or subtracting, yet be able to measure distances in inches too

Re: Why do we still teach people to calculate?

#29
post #27

to me this seems very ill-thought through, and doesn't feel like they actually remember what math was like. they are suggesting letting the computers do the computation part, but we already do that once that skill has been mastered. i.e.: simple calculators are allowed in calculous exams. the problem with bad ideas in education is the system might be stupid enough to follow through with it, like that new math nonsens…

[deleted]

Re: Why do we still teach people to calculate?

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And calculators get broken very quickly on construction sites. And you must be capable of adding and subtracting and finding the LCD and GCD of fractions to read a tape measure in US customary units.

There must be ruggedized calculators out there, so that argument doesn't seem very compelling. People use their phones at construction sites, and you can run whatever type of calculator you want on a cell phone.

If you run every basic calculation through a calculator, you'll make every task take 3x time it requires today, in best case.

I have seen people eyeball measurements and taking notes, and bringing in perfectly manufactured goods (blinds, cupboards, etc.) in return. Esp, in construction, nothing is precise, so being able to eyeball correctly after a quick measurement with a tape and doing some basic math on the numbers, not only accelerates tasks, but is a crucial pillar of being able to work on construction sites, and be productive.

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