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Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

blog.jitx.com

21–30 of 180 posts

Re: Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

#21
post #7

Ex EE here > The AI generated circuit was three times the cost and size of the design created by that expert engineer at TI. It is also missing many of the necessary connections. Exactly what I expected. Edit: to clarify this is even below the expectations of a junior EE who had a heavy weekend on the vodka.

Why do people think inserting an LLM into the mix will make it better than just an evolutionary or reinforcement model applied? Who cares if you can talk to it like a human?

Yeah, when the author was writing about that initial query about delay-per-unit-length, I'm thinking: "This doesn't tell us whether an LLM can apply the concepts, only whether relevant text was included in its training data."

It's a distinction I fear many people will have trouble keeping in-mind, faced with the misleading eloquence of LLM output.

Re: Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

#22
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gut agrees with you that LLMs shouldn't do this well on a specialty domain. But I think there's also the bitter lesson to be learned here: many times people say LLMs won't do well on a task, they are often surprised either immediately or a few months later. Overall not sure what to expect, but fine tuning experiments would be interesting regardless.

I doubt it'd work any better. Most of EE time I have spent is swearing at stuff that looked like it'd work on paper but didn't due to various nuances. I have my own library of nuances but how would you even fine tune anything to understand the black box abstraction of an IC to work out if a nuance applies or not between it and a load or what a transmission line or edge would look like between the IC and the load? Thi…

I doubt it too, but I notice that I keep underestimating the models.

Do you have a challenge task I can try? What's the easiest thing I could get an LLM to do for circuit board design that would surprise you?

Re: Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

#23
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it'd work any better. Most of EE time I have spent is swearing at stuff that looked like it'd work on paper but didn't due to various nuances. I have my own library of nuances but how would you even fine tune anything to understand the black box abstraction of an IC to work out if a nuance applies or not between it and a load or what a transmission line or edge would look like between the IC and the load? Thi…

I doubt it too, but I notice that I keep underestimating the models. Do you have a challenge task I can try? What's the easiest thing I could get an LLM to do for circuit board design that would surprise you?

Make two separate signals arrive at exactly the same time on two 50 ohm transmission lines that start and end next to each other and go around a right hand bend. At 3.8GHz.

Edit: no VSWR constraint. Can add that later :)

Edit 2: oh or design a board for a simple 100Mohm input instrumentation amplifier which knows what a guard ring is and how badly the solder mask will screw it up :)

Re: Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

#24
This reminds me of my professor's (probably very poor) description of NP-complete problems where the computer would provide an answer that may or may not be correct and you just had to check that it was correct and you do test for correctness in polynomial time.

It kind of grosses me out that we are entering a world where programming could be just testing (to me) random permutations of programs for correctness.

Re: Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

#25

This feels like an excellent demonstration of the limitation of zero-shot LLMs. It feels like the wrong way to approach this. I'm no expert in the matter, but for "holistic" things (where there are a lot of cross-connections and inter-dependencies) it feels like a diffusion-based generative structure would be better-suited than next-token-prediction. I've felt this way about poetry-generation, and I feel like it migh…

My gut agrees with you that LLMs shouldn't do this well on a specialty domain. But I think there's also the bitter lesson to be learned here: many times people say LLMs won't do well on a task, they are often surprised either immediately or a few months later. Overall not sure what to expect, but fine tuning experiments would be interesting regardless.

Some research to the contrary [1] - tldr is that they didn't find evidence that generative models really do zero shot well at all yet, if you show it something it literally hasn't seen before, it isn't "generally intelligent" enough to do it well. This isn't an issue for a lot of use-cases, but does seem to add some weight to the "giga-scale memorization" hypothesis.

[1] https://arxiv.org/html/2404.04125v2

Re: Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

#26

This reminds me of my professor's (probably very poor) description of NP-complete problems where the computer would provide an answer that may or may not be correct and you just had to check that it was correct and you do test for correctness in polynomial time. It kind of grosses me out that we are entering a world where programming could be just testing (to me) random permutations of programs for correctness.

Well we had to keep increasing inefficiency somehow, right? Otherwise how would Wirth's law continue to hold?

Re: Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

#27

This feels like an excellent demonstration of the limitation of zero-shot LLMs. It feels like the wrong way to approach this. I'm no expert in the matter, but for "holistic" things (where there are a lot of cross-connections and inter-dependencies) it feels like a diffusion-based generative structure would be better-suited than next-token-prediction. I've felt this way about poetry-generation, and I feel like it migh…

My gut agrees with you that LLMs shouldn't do this well on a specialty domain. But I think there's also the bitter lesson to be learned here: many times people say LLMs won't do well on a task, they are often surprised either immediately or a few months later. Overall not sure what to expect, but fine tuning experiments would be interesting regardless.

> But I think there's also the bitter lesson to be learned here: many times people say LLMs won't do well on a task, they are often surprised either immediately or a few months later.

Heh. This is very true. I think perhaps the thing I'm most amazed by is that simple next-token prediction seems to work unreasonably well for a great many tasks.

I just don't know how well that will scale into more complex tasks. With simple next-token prediction there is little mechanism for the model to iterate or to revise or refine as it goes.

There have been some experiments with things like speculative generation (where multiple branches are evaluated in parallel) to give a bit of a lookahead effect and help avoid the LLM locking itself into dead-ends, but they don't seem super popular overall -- people just prefer to increase the power and accuracy of the base model and keep chugging forward.

I can't help feeling like a fundamental shift something more akin to a diffusion-based approach would be helpful for such things. I just want some sort of mechanism where the model can "think" longer about harder problems. If you present a simple chess board to an LLM or a complex board to an LLM and ask it to generate the next move, it always responds in the same amount of time. That alone should tell us that LLMs are not intelligent, and they are not "thinking", and they will be insufficient for this going forward.

I believe Yann LeCun is right -- simply scaling LLMs is not going to get us to AGI. We need a fundamental structural shift to something new, but until we stop seeing such insane advancements in the quality of generation with LLMs (looking at you, Claude!!), I don't think we will move beyond. We have to get bored with LLMs first.

Re: Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

#28

This feels like an excellent demonstration of the limitation of zero-shot LLMs. It feels like the wrong way to approach this. I'm no expert in the matter, but for "holistic" things (where there are a lot of cross-connections and inter-dependencies) it feels like a diffusion-based generative structure would be better-suited than next-token-prediction. I've felt this way about poetry-generation, and I feel like it migh…

I like how you called it holistic, it is maybe the first time I see this word not in a "bad" context.

What about the topic, it is impossible to synthesize STEM things not in the manner an engineer does this. I mean thou shalt to know some typical solutions and have all the calculations for all what's happening in the schematic being developed.

Textbooks are not a joke and no matter who are you - a human or a device.

Re: Testing Generative AI for Circuit Board Design

#30
I'm terrified that JITX will get into the LLM / Generative AI for boards business. (Don't make me homeless, Duncan!)

They are already far ahead of many others with respect to next generation EE CAD.

Judicious application of AI would be a big win for them.

Edit: adding "TL;DRN'T" to my vocabulary XD

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