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Notes on Tajikistan

mattlakeman.org

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Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#21

Post by lye »

ssijak wrote: post #12
OutOfHere wrote: post #5

Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in check without resorting to either extremism or terrorism. But this is neither free nor assured, and it probably requires constant wilful effort. In the long term, I can see it bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggressi…

[flagged]

Yeah, "the West" lost a lot of goodwill in the region in the last couple of decades to be able to talk from such a high moral ground. I don't have any studies — they're probably impossible to run in an autocratic state — but in my country among people I've talked with through my life all major powers are viewed with roughly the same suspicion. It depends a lot on who you're talking to. If people are worried of possible secession of territory to China or Russia, they're equally worried about Western powers supporting "the fifth column" and color revolutions. Let's not pretend here they don't have any reasons to be worried.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#22

Post by rvense »

ssijak wrote: post #15
rvense wrote: post #6

An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family. There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones that didn't manage to leave after the col…

Your description does not sound like an amazing place that you said it is in the first sentence?

The people are friendly and welcoming, and the scenery is amazing. As a tourist, I don't much mind paying a few bribes to policemen (who barely get paid a wage), and I can stand to keep my mouth shut about their president when I'm there (even though he's obviously a bastard). But it's painful to think what it must be like to live there and have nowhere else to go.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#23

Post by pythonguython »

OutOfHere wrote: post #5

Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in check without resorting to either extremism or terrorism. But this is neither free nor assured, and it probably requires constant wilful effort. In the long term, I can see it bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggressi…

All of the central Asian “stan” countries have a Muslim majority and Tajikistan is actually the most extreme of them. But Kazakhstan, kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Turkey and Iran are all examples of islam without extremism (although Iran has fundamentalism)

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#24

Post by geoka9 »

rvense wrote: post #18
geoka9 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taliban (across the Panj river) has been a threat until recently. But for now they seem to be friends with Russia and Tajikistan has always been a Russian client state.

Have the Taliban ever conducted any operations in Tajikistan? I know people go back and forth over the river (I went to Badakshan once and saw them swim across!), so there's contact, but I don't think the Taliban have a habit of going to Tajikistan to take hostages or anything like that?

I haven't heard of any, FWIW. And they are the official government in Afghanistan now, so I would think it's not their thing anymore? (I can be wrong, of course.)

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#25

Post by ssijak »

geoka9 wrote: post #20
ssijak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your description does not sound like an amazing place that you said it is in the first sentence?

Some of the most beautiful mountain scenery I've ever seen and very hospitable people. A very nice place to visit. Not a very good place to live though unless you're so rich that you don't have to rely on the local infrastructure and services for survival and quality of life.

I find life to also be bad if you are the only rich person isolated in a bubble when 99% of the people are in extreme poverty. You just can't feel good, unless you don't care.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#26

Post by ashilfarahmand »

rvense wrote: post #6

An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family. There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones that didn't manage to leave after the col…

I visited last year. I agree with everything you said. It was beautiful. I didn't notice many Russians there at all though. Many more in the surrounding stans.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#27

Post by justsomehnguy »

rvense wrote: post #6

An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family. There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones that didn't manage to leave after the col…

> ones that didn't manage to leave after the collapse of the Soviet Union

> openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks

Makes me wonder, maybe something happened between ethnic Tajiks and ethnic Russians between Soviet Union collapse and the present.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#28

Post by mkoubaa »

OutOfHere wrote: post #5

Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in check without resorting to either extremism or terrorism. But this is neither free nor assured, and it probably requires constant wilful effort. In the long term, I can see it bleeding more territory to China due to the significant difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggressi…

Saying "Islam being kept in check" in this way sounds an implication that religion (or perhaps just this one) ought to be suppressed. This sort of attitude and policy coming from it is like gasoline for religious extremism, and the fact that Tajikistan exports extremists should be enough evidence for that

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#30

Post by ranni_ending »

nradov wrote: post #13
lye wrote: post #3

> The government and locals don’t like when you bring up Borat Depends on which locals. Younger generations never really cared about this. All my friends have always found the movies hilarious, especially the first one. When the sequel was released, the government finally started acting like adults: https://youtu.be/eRGXq4t9wY4 I'm pretty sure this is also caused by generational change in the government.

At one point the government of Kazakhstan threatened legal action over Borat and Sacha Baron Cohen hilariously responded in character. “I fully support my government’s position to sue this Jew.” https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/bor...

yeah at another point he distanced himself from making racist movies about country he has 0 idea about. then you bring up an example of him trying to hide behind his Jewish identity to be above criticism as a "joke".

it's trivial to punch down and then act like a victim by bringing up your own identity.

People who find it easy to make fun of others while being extremely thin-skinned themselves: https://www.timesofisrael.com/sacha-baron-cohen-tells-tiktok... for a legitimate dissent on his holy cow country. I imagine making fun of Israel in the same vein and making a movie about it in the same style would get anyone blacklisted in Hollywood. There will be 10 OP-EDs about how that's antisemitic and disrespectful. But because it's Kazakhstan nobody gives a shit and we're supposed to suck it up and laugh with others a la Oldboy.

It might be hilarious to you, but for ethnic Kazakhs it isn't (self-respecting ones at least).

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