https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp is a recent attempt to create a similar language, but with a Rust-inspired borrow checker. though it looks like prescheme would end up being less dependent on C ultimately, this is another option in the space.
The Pre-Scheme Restoration
21–30 of 61 posts
Re: The Pre-Scheme Restoration
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't read as tongue-in-cheek to me. NixOS does not have an equivalent to Guix's full-source bootstrap mentioned in the next sentence: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2023/the-full-source-bootstrap-bui... Nixpkgs also doesn't seem to require that all packages be built from source - which, if you're really looking for reproducibility, is a downside. I recognize that there are practical reasons for this, and it's part o…
There is also the "secret" nonguix channel which packages nonfree things for Guix: https://gitlab.com/nonguix/nonguix It's a funny problem but because it's antithetical to the original project's spirit you won't hear about it from any official Guix sources and so it's relatively unknown.
I wouldn't say it's relatively unknown, I see it come up just about every time Guix comes up in discussions here. And I'm glad nonguix exists, for what it's worth.
But it's helpful to have Guix itself aim for reproducibility even if nonguix exists, so you can install upstream Guix alone if you're looking for reproducibility.
Re: The Pre-Scheme Restoration
#23https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp is a recent attempt to create a similar language, but with a Rust-inspired borrow checker. though it looks like prescheme would end up being less dependent on C ultimately, this is another option in the space.
Stumbled upon this a while ago while looking for "a systems Scheme", but abandonware in my book given the most recent commit date (and GH Issue).
Settled on Gerbil Scheme instead, lively community & been actively developed to this day for over 15 years now. Although fair warning, still GC'd and (for now) only type-annotated, not (100%) statically typed. But stdlib-wise and compilation-wise still way more "systems-bent" than most Schemes out there.
Re: The Pre-Scheme Restoration
#24I am so excited for a Lispy systems language. Existing languages just don't do it for me, though I think Zig is the closest to being what I'm into. So much good stuff in Scheme48. Glad the good ideas are being revived.
> I am so excited for a Lispy systems language.
Can recommend Gerbil Scheme. Although fair warning, still GC'd and (for now) only type-annotated, not (100%) statically typed. But stdlib-wise and compilation-wise still way more "systems-bent" than most Schemes out there.
Re: The Pre-Scheme Restoration
#25https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp is a recent attempt to create a similar language, but with a Rust-inspired borrow checker. though it looks like prescheme would end up being less dependent on C ultimately, this is another option in the space.
Stumbled upon this a while ago while looking for "a systems Scheme", but abandonware in my book given the most recent commit date (and GH Issue). Settled on Gerbil Scheme instead, lively community & been actively developed to this day for over 15 years now. Although fair warning, still GC'd and (for now) only type-annotated, not (100%) statically typed. But stdlib-wise and compilation-wise still way more "systems-ben…
Guile is quite systems focused, as well, what with all the POSIX stuff it exposes. But neither Guile nor Gerbil can be used to implement their own runtimes. You need to write the GC, somehow. This is why Pre-Scheme exists.
Re: The Pre-Scheme Restoration
#26> On another front, the Guix project is a major force bringing new users to Scheme, providing an unparalleled foundation for free and reproducible computing. The Nix/OS folks might take exception. I'm guessing this is tongue-in-cheek but it belies the tone of the rest of the post. In all seriousness, though, this is exciting from a modern, end-user's vantage point and fascinating from an historical perspective.
It doesn't read as tongue-in-cheek to me. NixOS does not have an equivalent to Guix's full-source bootstrap mentioned in the next sentence: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2023/the-full-source-bootstrap-bui... Nixpkgs also doesn't seem to require that all packages be built from source - which, if you're really looking for reproducibility, is a downside. I recognize that there are practical reasons for this, and it's part o…
> Nixpkgs also doesn't seem to require that all packages be built from source - which, if you're really looking for reproducibility, is a downside.
Does Guix not have GHC (Glasgow Haskell Compiler) or did it somehow bootstrap GHC? Last time I checked bootstrapping GHC on today's hardware is effectively an unsolved problem. [1]
> NixOS does not have an equivalent to Guix's full-source bootstrap
While you are not wrong, there is nothing fundamentally stopping Nixpkgs from being bootstrapped in a similar way to Guix. emilytrau has already done a lot of the work. [2]
[1] https://elephly.net/posts/2017-01-09-bootstrapping-haskell-p... [2] https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/227914
Re: The Pre-Scheme Restoration
#27few days I've spent a few hours with prescheme, but was stopped in the end because there where gcc errors. I've felt a little guilty to have have spent some quite some time, but not have achieved anything. But thats the thing with Prescheme, so fascinating I could not resist. I mean look at its history, at all the cool and unique features.
Anyway, very cool to read this news, I'm also a little relieved not to have burnt all this hours into nothings. Very glad to see the story continues.
Re: The Pre-Scheme Restoration
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't read as tongue-in-cheek to me. NixOS does not have an equivalent to Guix's full-source bootstrap mentioned in the next sentence: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2023/the-full-source-bootstrap-bui... Nixpkgs also doesn't seem to require that all packages be built from source - which, if you're really looking for reproducibility, is a downside. I recognize that there are practical reasons for this, and it's part o…
> Nixpkgs also doesn't seem to require that all packages be built from source - which, if you're really looking for reproducibility, is a downside. Does Guix not have GHC (Glasgow Haskell Compiler) or did it somehow bootstrap GHC? Last time I checked bootstrapping GHC on today's hardware is effectively an unsolved problem. [1] > NixOS does not have an equivalent to Guix's full-source bootstrap While you are not wrong…
> Does Guix not have GHC (Glasgow Haskell Compiler) or did it somehow bootstrap GHC? Last time I checked bootstrapping GHC on today's hardware is effectively an unsolved problem.
I think you're right, it looks like they've gotten a little further now than in that post but there's still a gap in the bootstrap chain. So maybe not every package is fully bootstrapped, but they do seem to take it more seriously.
> While you are not wrong, there is nothing fundamentally stopping Nixpkgs from being bootstrapped in a similar way to Guix. emilytrau has already done a lot of the work.
Yes, I agree, and I hope they get there! I just also think that acknowledging the places where Guix is currently ahead isn't wrong. Nix isn't the only game in town anymore.
Re: The Pre-Scheme Restoration
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Nixpkgs also doesn't seem to require that all packages be built from source - which, if you're really looking for reproducibility, is a downside. Does Guix not have GHC (Glasgow Haskell Compiler) or did it somehow bootstrap GHC? Last time I checked bootstrapping GHC on today's hardware is effectively an unsolved problem. [1] > NixOS does not have an equivalent to Guix's full-source bootstrap While you are not wrong…
> Does Guix not have GHC (Glasgow Haskell Compiler) or did it somehow bootstrap GHC? Last time I checked bootstrapping GHC on today's hardware is effectively an unsolved problem. I think you're right, it looks like they've gotten a little further now than in that post but there's still a gap in the bootstrap chain. So maybe not every package is fully bootstrapped, but they do seem to take it more seriously. > While y…
> it looks like they've gotten a little further now than in that post
Can you say more, or provide any references? I would be interested in the state of the art here.
Re: The Pre-Scheme Restoration
#30> On another front, the Guix project is a major force bringing new users to Scheme, providing an unparalleled foundation for free and reproducible computing. The Nix/OS folks might take exception. I'm guessing this is tongue-in-cheek but it belies the tone of the rest of the post. In all seriousness, though, this is exciting from a modern, end-user's vantage point and fascinating from an historical perspective.
It doesn't read as tongue-in-cheek to me. NixOS does not have an equivalent to Guix's full-source bootstrap mentioned in the next sentence: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2023/the-full-source-bootstrap-bui... Nixpkgs also doesn't seem to require that all packages be built from source - which, if you're really looking for reproducibility, is a downside. I recognize that there are practical reasons for this, and it's part o…
Nix doesn't require everything to be built from source, sure, but everything downloaded must match a provided hash. What's the difference between downloading source code and binaries at that point?