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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#21

Post by uxcolumbo »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #12
jschveibinz wrote: post #4

92 Billion animals are killed each year for food.[1] That doesn't include the 110 million that are killed each year for science. [2] These animals must not be conscious, or we would never do such a thing, right? Oh, and we keep over a billion pets in our homes and call them our friends. But they can't be conscious. The science must be flawed. /s [1] https://www.humanesociety.org/blog/more-animals-ever-922-bil... [2]…

Why is killing conscious stuff bad? I see absolutely no reason for that. And if you do, that won’t be normative, because you’re a fallible person just like me and there’s no reason for why I should live my life according to your reasoning instead of mine.

With conscious stuff I’m assuming you mean conscious beings.

It is against the law to murder another human. In many countries it is also against the law to kill or torture your pet. Are you not living your life according to those agreed upon ‘reasoning’?

As humanity evolves, the circle of compassion and common sense will expand to also include those conscious beings that we currently don’t deem worthy of compassion, since having a factory farmed burger on our plate is currently more important than reducing our carbon footprint, pollution, habitat destruction, deforestation or simply not inflicting pain and suffering on sentient beings.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#22

Post by ben_w »

dorongrinstein wrote: post #3

Do people not have dogs? They have more emotional intelligence than most humans and love, fear, play, plan, think, reason and communicate well. This is true for many animals. I'd say that most animals are just like human in terms of consciousness but less advanced in thinking and communicating (without debating about whales, dolphins, octopuses etc.)

As all the discussion about AI has shown, what we even mean by intelligence in humans is a huge and ongoing debate.

IIRC, canine emotional intelligence has been tested, and dogs have the emotional intelligence of a 14 year old human.

Just don't take my word for it as I've not been able to find an actual citation.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#23

Post by ben_w »

andrepd wrote: post #18
fjfaase wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is indeed a hard question that one could also apply to humans. There is no way to know if someone else is conscious. It might be obvious for all people, but what about babies or people with advanced stages with dementia or certain types of brain damage? What about people with mental disabilities? (I have experienced some of these in family members.)

Even for "normal" humans, the point is that consciousness is by definition unobservable from the outside, so everyone else but you can be un-conscious and you would have no way of telling. It's the p-zombies thought experiment.

> so everyone else but you can be un-conscious and you would have no way of telling

Indeed, though* all of us should be confident that there is at least a second conscious being besides ourselves, the one who coined the term.

* ignoring A J Ayer for a moment, even though "there is a thought now" would be the only form of consciousness that a current LLM could possibly have if it had any at all

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#24

Post by kbrkbr »

mvid wrote: post #15
jbotz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less advanced in symbolic thinking and communicating. There are other forms of thinking (like fast tactical thinking, some predators are conceivably better at this than most humans) and communicating (emotional communication; if we could quantify that I would bet on elephants).

Orcas are better at communicating than humans are, their languages more directly resembles telepathy than the “encode thoughts into grunts that then need to be decoded” that we have. They are essentially beaming waveform pictures to each other

That is a very narrow definition of better it seems.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#25

Post by kbrkbr »

Speaking about this topic is already hard. It's not like the words needed can be learned in observing the world. There is a lot of reflection going on to sharpen their meaning to the nuance that's needed for serious discussion.

Conscious, self-aware, sentient, thinking, to name just a few, mean quite different things - not only in themselves, but also per philosophical school of thinking their connections and subdivisions are different.

Plenty of room for misunderstanding...

I think it was Augustinus who said about time "when no one asks me I know what it means". And then went on a journey to try to understand what it is that he knows.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#26

Post by guilhas »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #21
Aerbil313 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is killing conscious stuff bad? I see absolutely no reason for that. And if you do, that won’t be normative, because you’re a fallible person just like me and there’s no reason for why I should live my life according to your reasoning instead of mine.

With conscious stuff I’m assuming you mean conscious beings. It is against the law to murder another human. In many countries it is also against the law to kill or torture your pet. Are you not living your life according to those agreed upon ‘reasoning’? As humanity evolves, the circle of compassion and common sense will expand to also include those conscious beings that we currently don’t deem worthy of compassion,…

So our evolved consciousness will be superior to other animals that still eat other animals

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#27

Post by erelong »

I think this ultimately becomes a religious discussion; even the article (wrongly in our view) calls Darwin "god-like" and suggests that belief in animals having consciousness is "heresy" (this perhaps borders on theological error, rather than heresy?)

It is a long-standing religious belief that animals do not possess a rational immortal soul and neither do they possess the ability to choose good or evil but are instead governed by instinct, which is why we don't put animals on trial for crimes as it is presumed they have no consciousness of what is right and wrong like humans do

It might be worth reviewing many of the characteristics unique to humans to by way of contrast appreciate how different humans are from other creatures

Animals lack the "moral consciousness" and dignity that is unique to humans which is why most people are comfortable even killing animals and eating them as food, while "cannibalism" is thought to be a barbaric immoral practice contrary to unique human dignity

Articles like these in our view are being pushed possibly to degrade humans to the level of animals so as to justify animal-like immoral behavior

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#28

Post by defrost »

erelong wrote: post #27

I think this ultimately becomes a religious discussion; even the article (wrongly in our view) calls Darwin "god-like" and suggests that belief in animals having consciousness is "heresy" (this perhaps borders on theological error, rather than heresy?) It is a long-standing religious belief that animals do not possess a rational immortal soul and neither do they possess the ability to choose good or evil but are inst…

Just for reference:

> the article (wrongly in our view) calls Darwin "god-like"

It does not. The exact quote is:

    Charles Darwin enjoys a near god-like status among scientists for his theory of evolution.
It's an idiom that does NOT claim Darwin is like an actual god, it's also a statement that I disagree with as not all scientists consider Darwin to hold that status, a good number credit Wallace with the theory, with holding it first, for having better evidence, and Darwin holding the home court advantage being in England and able to present in person to the Royal Society.

> which is why we don't put animals on trial for crimes

You may not but many animals have been put on trial for crimes throughout history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_trial

> Animals lack the "moral consciousness" and dignity that is unique to humans

Your opinion is noted .. although appears to have been eronously made as if a statement of fact which is debated, as discussed in the article.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#29

Post by guilhas »

Should we stop eating chicken, fish, and other small animals, in favour of bigger ones like cow? That would reduce farm animal suffering by more than 80%

What about the meat alternative insects? Are they conscious? If so there are people investing millions. to kill gazillion lives a year

Or are they definitely "inferior"?

Do we even know what suffering and consciousness is?

Why did nature evolved for animals to eat each other?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#30

Post by salesynerd »

chimpanzee wrote: post #7
salesynerd wrote: post #5

I sometimes think that animistic belief - objects, places, and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence - is more respectful of the ecosystem than some of the modern ones. Lots of ancient cultures, across the globe, tried to live in harmony with their natural environments. I wish that we can go back to that stage.

I agree. You should check out “Becoming Animal” and “The Spell of the Sensuous”, both by David Abram

Thanks for your suggestion; I'll read the two books.
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