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New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

swift.org

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Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#21

Post by mdhb »

jshen wrote: post #20
mdhb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got to be honest every time I look over to the Swift/iOS development ecosystem I’m shocked at the amount of nonsense they have to deal with. - Xcode is terrible - Documentation is barely existent - you can’t really reuse your code in any other context - you have to pay them money to even release your software - they steal 30% of your revenue - they reserve the right to shut you down at any point, for any reason and…

What does this have to do with swift?

It’s at the core of the ecosystem and has basically zero other well supported use cases or successes to point to.

Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#22

Post by MBCook »

mdhb wrote: post #16
songbird23 wrote: post #10

hope this works out! i really wanna work with swift outside xcode, i want it in vim

I got to be honest every time I look over to the Swift/iOS development ecosystem I’m shocked at the amount of nonsense they have to deal with. - Xcode is terrible - Documentation is barely existent - you can’t really reuse your code in any other context - you have to pay them money to even release your software - they steal 30% of your revenue - they reserve the right to shut you down at any point, for any reason and…

> Documentation is barely existent

Depends on the thing. And there is a large community with examples online, which helps.

> you can’t really reuse your code in any other context

Not everyone cares. If I’m only targeting an iOS app the fact the code doesn’t run on Android or Windows isn’t a problem for me.

> you have to pay them money to even release your software

On Apple’s App Store, sure. Or if you want your stuff signed. If you want to release open source or don’t mind shipping unsigned stuff it’s free free free.

> they steal 30% of your revenue > they reserve the right to shut you down at any point, for any reason and provide almost zero recourse.

Only if you’re in their App Store or want your stuff signed.

> I get why people had to use it historically but it seems like a really bad choice to try and build any kind of reliable future on top of in 2024.

The bargain is the same as it ever was. I’m OK with it. I made stuff in Xcode for my Mac just for me for a long time without hassle or paying a cent. The costs only cost if you want to distribute pre-built binaries to others.

Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#23

Post by pudwallabee »

mdhb wrote: post #16
songbird23 wrote: post #10

hope this works out! i really wanna work with swift outside xcode, i want it in vim

I got to be honest every time I look over to the Swift/iOS development ecosystem I’m shocked at the amount of nonsense they have to deal with. - Xcode is terrible - Documentation is barely existent - you can’t really reuse your code in any other context - you have to pay them money to even release your software - they steal 30% of your revenue - they reserve the right to shut you down at any point, for any reason and…

The tooling(?) (starting with xcode) is quite objectionable and is enough to drive people (me) away. The language choices are well. Interesting. Kotlin fills the need for mainstream Swift better than Swift, and without all the baggage that Apple brings to the table.

If you want to see what open source Swift is going to end up like, just look at GNU objective C. It will likely follow the same pattern of adoption over time and be hobbled on non-Apple platforms.

Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#24

Post by armchairhacker »

songbird23 wrote: post #10

hope this works out! i really wanna work with swift outside xcode, i want it in vim

Swift had good support in JetBrains AppCode.

Maybe it still does, but probably not, because AppCode was sunsetted at the end of 2022 and stopped receiving updates in 2023 (https://blog.jetbrains.com/appcode/2022/12/appcode-2022-3-re...). Which is really unfortunate.

If Swift ever gets good support outside of Apple, I wouldn’t be surprised if JetBrains starts working on their Swift plugin again and releases it for IntelliJ and CLion. But despite this migration, my understanding is that Swift on Linux and the new Foundation (non-Apple standard library) is still lacking.

Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#25

Post by j1elo »

MBCook wrote: post #22
mdhb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got to be honest every time I look over to the Swift/iOS development ecosystem I’m shocked at the amount of nonsense they have to deal with. - Xcode is terrible - Documentation is barely existent - you can’t really reuse your code in any other context - you have to pay them money to even release your software - they steal 30% of your revenue - they reserve the right to shut you down at any point, for any reason and…

> Documentation is barely existent Depends on the thing. And there is a large community with examples online, which helps. > you can’t really reuse your code in any other context Not everyone cares. If I’m only targeting an iOS app the fact the code doesn’t run on Android or Windows isn’t a problem for me. > you have to pay them money to even release your software On Apple’s App Store, sure. Or if you want your stuff…

> On Apple’s App Store, sure. Or if you want your stuff signed.

> Only if you’re in their App Store or want your stuff signed.

I'd buy that one if installing something from outside Apple's App Store was just like in Windows, downloading an installer package and running it (which AFAIK it is for Mac, but not for iOS). And similarly to the signed stuff: not sure about modern Windows as I ran away from it a while ago, but last time I used it (Win 7) if the installer wasn't signed you could just install it anyway with a single click. Say those two things aren't capped on iOS or Mac, then yes, your rebuttal is valid.

But if "you" (Apple) change the rules of the game of how traditional installers have always worked, over the years making those two things de facto mandatory, then later you cannot claim in your right mind "hey but if you want to make your software impractical to use, you're free to do so!"

Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#26

Post by cageface »

MBCook wrote: post #22
mdhb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got to be honest every time I look over to the Swift/iOS development ecosystem I’m shocked at the amount of nonsense they have to deal with. - Xcode is terrible - Documentation is barely existent - you can’t really reuse your code in any other context - you have to pay them money to even release your software - they steal 30% of your revenue - they reserve the right to shut you down at any point, for any reason and…

> Documentation is barely existent Depends on the thing. And there is a large community with examples online, which helps. > you can’t really reuse your code in any other context Not everyone cares. If I’m only targeting an iOS app the fact the code doesn’t run on Android or Windows isn’t a problem for me. > you have to pay them money to even release your software On Apple’s App Store, sure. Or if you want your stuff…

Shipping unsigned stuff is not commercially viable. Very few users even know how to get around gatekeeper and even fewer are willing to do it to run your app.

Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#27

Post by cageface »

mdhb wrote: post #16
songbird23 wrote: post #10

hope this works out! i really wanna work with swift outside xcode, i want it in vim

I got to be honest every time I look over to the Swift/iOS development ecosystem I’m shocked at the amount of nonsense they have to deal with. - Xcode is terrible - Documentation is barely existent - you can’t really reuse your code in any other context - you have to pay them money to even release your software - they steal 30% of your revenue - they reserve the right to shut you down at any point, for any reason and…

It’s not a great choice to build a reliable software business in 2024 but most of the other choices right now aren’t great either.

Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#28

Post by ghayes »

songbird23 wrote: post #10

hope this works out! i really wanna work with swift outside xcode, i want it in vim

Try building a Swift project without Xcode. It works great. `swift build` and `swift test` all work significantly better than with Xcode, and there's no `xcodeproj` file. I am building in ST4 with good LSP and no problems at all.

https://www.swift.org/getting-started/library-swiftpm/

† The doc is about building a library, but building an executable works the same.

Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#29

Post by pharaohgeek »

armchairhacker wrote: post #24
songbird23 wrote: post #10

hope this works out! i really wanna work with swift outside xcode, i want it in vim

Swift had good support in JetBrains AppCode. Maybe it still does, but probably not, because AppCode was sunsetted at the end of 2022 and stopped receiving updates in 2023 ( https://blog.jetbrains.com/appcode/2022/12/appcode-2022-3-re... ). Which is really unfortunate. If Swift ever gets good support outside of Apple, I wouldn’t be surprised if JetBrains starts working on their Swift plugin again and releases it for I…

Writing server-side Swift in AppCode or CLion was a breeze, too. The interface was so much friendlier than XCode. It's a real shame they discontinued Swift support.

Re: New GitHub Organization for the Swift Project

#30

Post by h12nz »

candiddevmike wrote: post #12
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #2

I really wish this now makes Swift worthwhile outside of the Apple ecosystem. A bit like Go.

Why would that make it more worthwhile? What are the compelling reasons to use Swift instead of Go?

Because it has much nicer ergonomics. Why would anyone create a modern language with nil.
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