Wind power and solar photovoltaics have higher energy returns than fossil fuels • Hacker News Board

Re: Wind power and solar photovoltaics have higher energy returns than fossil fuels

#21

Post by ZeroGravitas » Tue, Jun 04, 2024, 9:39 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #8

dralley wrote: post #3

Was that ever in dispute amongst serious people?

Yes. We all saw what happened to Germany when they pretended wind/solar was competitive with fossil fuels in the Energiewende. It was a clear step backwards. Countries utilising cheap energy have energy (and electricity) profiles that look like China, not Germany. The fact that now renewables seem to be honest-to-goodness competitive is big news. If serious people should be investing in renewables which is a huge cha…

> We all saw what happened to Germany when they pretended wind/solar was competitive with fossil fuels in the Energiewende.

I think you've gone off script.

You're not supposed to state that you think burning dirty coal and imported Russian gas are better than renewables.

Normally people bashing Germany hide behind pretending they're nuclear fans.

Re: Wind power and solar photovoltaics have higher energy returns than fossil fuels

#22

Post by ZeroGravitas » Tue, Jun 04, 2024, 9:44 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #11

toomuchtodo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany helped drive down renewables costs. Someone had to eat the beginning of the S curve. Lazy laggards are receiving the benefits of those investments previously made. https://energytransition.org/2016/01/how-germany-helped-brin... > “The Germans were not really buying power — they were buying a price decline,” Hal Harvey, a US clean energy expert.

The numbers suggest their efforts failed and what they should have done was waited for China to start manufacturing solar panels using the returns from heavy investment in fossil fuels. But regardless; if we don't have any argument that Germany spent a lot of money on wind/solar and weren't getting power out of it then I think serious people would dispute that wind/solar had higher energy returns than coal at the tim…

> I think serious people would dispute that wind/solar had higher energy returns than coal at the time.

This is why I think it's important when stating that renewables have a higher EROI than fossil fuels, to also emphasise that EROI is a stupid metric that doesn't matter at all in reality.

It was only ever popular with doomers and cranks for this reason.

Re: Wind power and solar photovoltaics have higher energy returns than fossil fuels

#23

Post by marssaxman » Tue, Jun 04, 2024, 5:39 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #11

toomuchtodo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany helped drive down renewables costs. Someone had to eat the beginning of the S curve. Lazy laggards are receiving the benefits of those investments previously made. https://energytransition.org/2016/01/how-germany-helped-brin... > “The Germans were not really buying power — they were buying a price decline,” Hal Harvey, a US clean energy expert.

The numbers suggest their efforts failed and what they should have done was waited for China to start manufacturing solar panels using the returns from heavy investment in fossil fuels. But regardless; if we don't have any argument that Germany spent a lot of money on wind/solar and weren't getting power out of it then I think serious people would dispute that wind/solar had higher energy returns than coal at the tim…

> what they should have done was waited for China to start manufacturing solar panels

...but China started manufacturing solar panels in no small part because Germany started buying them, promoting a virtuous cycle. It might have been a long wait for that cycle to begin of its own accord!