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Parable of the Sofa

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21–30 of 357 posts

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#21
The wonderful thing about the free market is that consumers have choice. There is indeed a large market for high quality products at a higher price. Old brands become shitty, and new brands pop up.

Bernie Sanders, a famous modern-day socialist, is famous for saying we don’t need so many brands of deodorant: https://fortune.com/2024/02/12/too-many-products-bernie-sand...

This is where I fundamentally disagree. Only the market, where consumers put their hard-earned dollars at work, can tell us how many brands of deodorant are needed. From skin sensitivity to smell to the chemical makeup, I don’t want a government bureaucrat deciding the “correct” number of deodorant brands. I want as many as the market sees fit.

Extending that principle outwards, the market will decide the type of sofas that can be made, and at what price.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#22
post #12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High quality furniture is still being made and sold, just not for $300 for a couch. Cheap shit is going to be cheap shit. Growing up, furniture was something that was expensive, carefully shopped for, and hand delivered fully assembled. I see the availability of cheap (to make and to transport) furniture as filling a gap in the market previously not addressed, but if you’re in a position to buy a piece you’d like to…

The challenge right now is that even the expensive stuff is cheap shit. It’s goddamn near impossible to actually assess the quality of an item you’re purchasing, and the only guarantee is that if it’s a good quality product today, someone will recognize the brand has equity and financial engineer it into crap tomorrow.

Its not as hard to recognize good craftsmanship in furniture as in other types of products.

https://www.thosmoser.com/

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#23
post #8
post #2

>Sofas made in the past 15 years or so are absolute garbage, constructed of sawdust compressed and bonded with cheap glue, simple brackets in place of proper joinery, substandard spring design, flimsy foam, and a lot of staples. Interesting, I didn't know it's the case everywhere, not only in my country. Several beds/sofas we bought in the last 5-10 years had such poor quality they cracked in multiple places already…

High quality furniture is still being made and sold, just not for $300 for a couch. Cheap shit is going to be cheap shit. Growing up, furniture was something that was expensive, carefully shopped for, and hand delivered fully assembled. I see the availability of cheap (to make and to transport) furniture as filling a gap in the market previously not addressed, but if you’re in a position to buy a piece you’d like to…

Yeah... maybe, theoretically you could assess if the expensive furniture was crap or not but in practice it's problematic, so you pay for some expensive crap.

Also the thing is that IKEA hollowed out the middle market, there is only cheap crap, medium crap but still crap, expensive crap that masquerades as expensive quality, and expensive quality.

The sofa that the author bought was not expensive quality, it was medium quality. Medium quality is good enough for just about anything but it probably isn't beautiful and high quality. The stuff you are seeing around from the old days in that are more sturdy than modern things are generally not the expensive stuff, because that stuff is still expensive. It's the medium stuff.

There is no longer any more medium stuff.

Thanks, IKEA.

On edit: feelings on matter may be colored by living in Denmark, which may be more affected by IKEA than other countries (proximity to Sweden, Danish habit of everyone agreeing on one way of doing things and then there is no other way)

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#24
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to criticize his conclusion when you leave out all the evidence for said conclusion: > But the subtext is drearily familiar. Globalization: Check. Cheap-labor arbitrage: Check. Tax engineering: Check. High profits: Check. Flat-packing: Check. Do you deny that any or all of this is happening, today, under capitalism? Do you deny that there are incentives for any or all of this under capitalism today? Do you…

He spent $1100 CAD getting his sofa reupholstered, and the sofa itself cost over $3,000 CAD in 1999 according to the article (so about $5,000 today). Cheap things are cheaply made isn't news. But being able to have them at all, is for a lot of people, very valuable. What is not in the article is what would $5,000 buy him today? He doesn't know because he didn't go looking. The linked article in the article is someone…

He does have some idea what $5k would get him. He mentions that a new, well-made, leather-upholstered sofa would run 5 figures, so, at least $10k. That makes re-upholstering the economically rational choice over both a new $5k sofa and a hypothetical, same quality version of the 1965 Sears sofa.

I don't see what your point is.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#25
One exception that proves the rule: the best sofa we ever had was a hand me down from Pottery Barn c. 2009 made of softwood and particle board with stapled on polyester velour. Extremely easy to clean, easy to take apart, and easy to re-assemble. It cracked in the middle but I reinforced the frame and added extra feet and the design meant the re-stapled fabric covered all my bodges quite neatly.

Yes, modern furniture is crap and there is an epidemic of junk sold at fancy prices. If you reframe your crappy sofa as purchasing a sofa kit and pay a reasonable not-West-Elm price for it then it doesn’t seem so bad after all.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#26

> Late Capitalism: Check check fucking check. I think the author would stop blaming capitalism after seeing the atrocious sofas of the late socialist Soviet Union, which wete not only worse than anything, but also the only choice.

Those sofas were about the same as what you'd buy at IKEA today, maybe even a bit more sturdy. And they basically were an IKEA kind of product: cheap and mass produced.

Interestingly, a Soviet-era sofa in good condition is now worth quite a bit for its retro properties.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#27
post #8
post #2

>Sofas made in the past 15 years or so are absolute garbage, constructed of sawdust compressed and bonded with cheap glue, simple brackets in place of proper joinery, substandard spring design, flimsy foam, and a lot of staples. Interesting, I didn't know it's the case everywhere, not only in my country. Several beds/sofas we bought in the last 5-10 years had such poor quality they cracked in multiple places already…

High quality furniture is still being made and sold, just not for $300 for a couch. Cheap shit is going to be cheap shit. Growing up, furniture was something that was expensive, carefully shopped for, and hand delivered fully assembled. I see the availability of cheap (to make and to transport) furniture as filling a gap in the market previously not addressed, but if you’re in a position to buy a piece you’d like to…

IKEA shelves and stuff are cheap (in both senses of the word, generally, although some pieces do hold up surprisingly well), but their couches in particular are somehow both crazy expensive and wildly uncomfortable. I remember trying one in the showroom that felt like a massive hard frame with some sagging cushions tacked on, and it was about a thousand bucks.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#28

> Late Capitalism: Check check fucking check. I think the author would stop blaming capitalism after seeing the atrocious sofas of the late socialist Soviet Union, which wete not only worse than anything, but also the only choice.

Doesn't remove the fact that we had good sofas 40 years ago. Perhaps capitalism is only good while it's kept in check by the menace of communism.

He paid somewhere between 3 and 4 thousand dollars for that couch in 1999, which is probably over $6k in today's money. Sure a $999 leather couch from Ikea may not be the greatest, but is it really so impossible to get a good quality leather couch for $6500 today? That sounds ridiculous to me actually, I'm certain that you could find many great options at that price. And I don't believe that mere availability of cheaper options is somehow a bad thing.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#29
This is something that has bothered me for a while. When we're discussing capitalism, people seem to get it in their head that it's either what we have now, or you can fuck off to North Korea.

How I would characterize my ideal economy is one where the feedback loop works: people can make reasonable guesses about what a product is, how long it will work for, and what its cost is. They can adjust their purchases according to their needs, which tells us which products should exist and which should not. Businesses do not trick the customers into thinking a thing has more value than it actually does. A very large part of this economy is accurate information, and a very large part of accurate information is trust. After all nobody is going to know more about the product than the people who made it, and they will always have an interest in representing their product in the most positive light. Lemon problem.

The thing that seems to characterize the economy now is that businesses will violate your trust in order to make money. They know that you won't read the license agreement when you sign up for a service, and they will use that. They know that you won't be checking what kind of joins your sofa has. They know that you won't get as much value from their items as the adverts say. All of these abuses can be done within the law, perhaps because these same businesses are involved with shaping the law.

The feedback loop is broken, and this leads to the same problem as what the Soviet Union had. Their problem wasn't that people were lazy and didn't go to work. Their problem was that they made the wrong stuff. Things that nobody wanted, often with the same quality issues as what you get these days buying an item from a market economy. Note that GDP figures will still not know this, it just sees all the crap and counts the money paid for it.

Often we pick on MBAs when it comes to this sort of critique, and there's some merit to it. If your only goal is to make money, and the economy is riddled with loopholes where you can make money without providing value, then we will have an economy that doesn't provide a lot of value, because MBAs are really good at finding these types of things.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#30

Just gotta get some Gomer Bolstrood. In all honesty I have no desire for furniture not made by someone I know or alternately made by some New England craftsman who gets paid more than I do and either way I want furniture that will last at least the next hundred years. I have no desire for furniture that my grandchildren wont spend a couple days fighting over.

My experience is that there's a high probability they won't have space for it, or the will to refurbish it, and it will be sold in a garage sale or even thrown away on the curb.
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