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Is College Worth It?

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21–30 of 39 posts

Re: Is College Worth It?

#21
post #17

I have 30 years of industry experience, but I am obviously not as useful as someone who read a book about things other people have done and took a multiple choice quiz about it.

I find that people who haven't gone to university have no clue how much they don't know. The best part of university is realizing how dumb you are and that you are ignorant in every way.

> The best part of university is realizing how dumb you are and that you are ignorant in every way.

Realizing how ignorant you are and still thinking that you know more than people skipping university.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#22
For the crowd that tends to be frequenting places like HN, I still believe college to very much be worth it. There are many viable paths to almost any outcome, but college is a rare time where you are constantly surrounded by opportunity with minimal effort: these opportunities include being exposed to new ideas, meeting new people as peers, meeting new people as mentors, and jobs that can make you money or jobs that can prove exceptionally meaningful. Not to mention that it’s a generically good tool for passing a baseline for many people in many circumstances (job applications, cold reach outs, meeting the parents — any circumstance where you are a stranger, it signals that you are more likely to be responsible than not knowing whether you went to college).

Of course, it’s possible to eschew these opportunities, but if you ever have a moment of clarity to try and live life a little better, the opportunities are there within reach. At any later point in life, these things can be hard to come by serendipitously, and they tend to require a relatively steep active effort.

In general, upfront life investment is exceptionally valuable, and the (all encompassing) human gestation period easily extends through college age in modern society. I think the issue of its worth is typically for people that were underserved in their grade school years, which is probably a decently large percentage of the country.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprising, common sentiment among current college-aged zoomers currently advocates the opposite. I frequently see posts convinced CS/Art jobs will be completely automated by AI in just a few years, and the only way to be safe is to get a business degree and go into management. I think a lot of it is overblown, but I've already seen a few friends switch their degrees over it.

You don’t go take a management job out of college

That's not strictly true. When I worked at IBM, they had a graduate program which quite literally fast tracked very high achieving college graduates straight into management ranks.

It was also the only time I've worked with recent college graduates that actually had a clue, instead of being complete morons needing a few years of experience in order to be useful.

It changed my opinion of college graduates, to "maybe they're not all idiots after all...". ;)

Re: Is College Worth It?

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprising, common sentiment among current college-aged zoomers currently advocates the opposite. I frequently see posts convinced CS/Art jobs will be completely automated by AI in just a few years, and the only way to be safe is to get a business degree and go into management. I think a lot of it is overblown, but I've already seen a few friends switch their degrees over it.

I do kind of agree with Jensen Huangs statement about this recently where he says don't learn to code but instead learn a domain deeply. Actually I think you should do both. Understanding how to "computationalize" a domain problem is a very valuable skill.

This seems huge if you can do it. I'm guessing a company like Intuit pays top dollar for job candidates with a double major in finance and computer science.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#25
College is notoriously survivor biased, and the metrics that nearly all studies use to justify whatever they happen to be selling that day is horseshit. There are a lot of malevolent parasites that make their way into forever jobs like these.

What I would personally like to see is a study of class section pass-rates that properly segment first-attempt students from re-attempt students in the metrics. The Administration doesn't collect these because it would shine visibility on a decades old problem, showing they have a conflict of interest (they want a forever student, and to take your federally subsidized money).

There is a lot of fraud that happens in various different forms within these systems, that is undisclosed upfront.

Physics had the notorious 3 question fail test, where questions were dependent on getting the correct answers from all previous questions, along with undisclosed rules that contradict curricula taught rules (significant digits). If you rounded at each problem you failed, if you rounded at just the last problem you failed. In other words it embeds a causality property biasing the pass distribution greatly (only the top ~10-15% would pass).

Material may not be covered, but still tested on, and this may come in many different forms. Some are very tricky indeed to spot.

Answering inferential questions, for them to be valid they require that there be a signal that is easily differentiable from the material taught (SNR) which allows comparison between two similar answers but one correct straightforward answer, this signal is usually attenuated to the point of denial of service (jamming), or the wording used is ambiguous (having two contradictory meanings, one of which must be guessed).

The amount of time required to succeed may be non-standard (i.e. 3 hours / week per 1 unit is typical, but some classes are as high as 7-9). There are finite hours in the day, and to receive federal funding one must get 12 units. This may range from 34 hours/week for 16 weeks to 70+ depending on the hidden variables for the class.

Worse, the tools that are marketed to teachers for these classes use dark patterns, or do not disclose the effect (to induce additional failures). Pearson did this as recently as 2022, where they embedded per-student randomized exam pools and the teacher couldn't access the questions on the test (and you can't rely on a signal from the class because each test is unique), and other psychological patterns such as forcing you to confirm that you got the answer wrong before you can continue (with big red text), whereas correct answers just continue on. Almost like beating a mallet on the student every time they get it wrong, while tossing invectives their way. You think that won't have an impact on performance?

You can literally spend 20 years going to school and never actually complete a degree (same area of study), and not from a matter of not knowing the material.

Normally someone would mention that if there were problems there are routes you can take to address them but that's not actually true either. They do have feedback systems, but those feedback systems are broken feedback systems.

There is no duty to investigate a complaint. Any investigation is viewed by the faculty as creating a hostile work environment. They are all peers, from the Chair, to the Dean, to the Board of Trustees. Its all about social standing, and students have none.

I would be ineffably better off today if I had never gone to college just from the financial toll its taken over the years, and the health toll (in hours worked for a pipedream).

Re: Is College Worth It?

#26
No. Bachelor's only if you're getting a paid ride. Anything else make sure it's than 2 years, and it's a program that proves industry placement and strong connections. You will be stuck with a useless bachelor's in most programs today.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, humans are tribal creatures and having certain tribe markers still makes your life a helluva lot easier. I went to a T20 school in the USA with name brand recognition. I often hang out with close friends who did not. Let me tell you: school discrimination is real. People (including those who gatekeep the first 5 years of your career) treat me differently than my friends once they find out where I'm fro…

It sounds unfair until you look at all this from a different angle. Lots of companies pay head hunters good money to get valuable candidates. You can think of the Ivies and the other top tier schools as 4-year head-hunting agencies. They first do a selection to see which kids have the most potential. Some of the kids have potential in the fact that they are very hard working, or extremely smart, or both. And some hav…

> On top of this selection, these universities also provide training. But that's secondary

I’m not sure. The variation is less among the top schools. I may not get an ace, but I won’t get the kid who just doesn’t show up one day or couldn’t write an e-mail without half a dozen typos to save their own life.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#28
College grads still make on average roughly 2x what high school grads make, so yes, so college is worth it in an economic sense. Yes, some majors are more lucrative than others, yes you can screw up anything, but in aggregate and on average, it will ~double your income.

But economics/capitalism is only one lens through which to look at this. College is NOT vocational training. You don't go to college to become more useful to your overlords. Ideally, after college you would be useless to overlords.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#29
post #7

Graduate level jobs still require you to have recently graduated from something. In my field that means "a degree in computer science or equivalent". It's still the path of least resistance for getting through the door. Yes, there are often other routes, but they all involve working harder than everyone else. Apprenticeships don't really scale for corporate roles, there are too many candidates, and it requires too mu…

>College outsources parts of this, it's one last filter to weed out "the weirdos" - the graduates come prepackaged, indebted and pliable, ready to be slotted in and adsorbed by the system.

As counterintuitive as it may sound, but the entire point of college is to commoditize labor according to a specialization.

Re: Is College Worth It?

#30

if you are learning a skill sure. i got my degree in business/marketing and it was a complete waste of time.

Surprising, common sentiment among current college-aged zoomers currently advocates the opposite. I frequently see posts convinced CS/Art jobs will be completely automated by AI in just a few years, and the only way to be safe is to get a business degree and go into management. I think a lot of it is overblown, but I've already seen a few friends switch their degrees over it.

Those people must be stupid. First of all, CS does have programming classes to get you started, but they expect you to just be able to do it past the fourth semester. The classes without any programming are just as relevant as before. Finally, you also get to build the thing that is supposedly taking your job away, so you are just replacing one thing to do with another.

There are management and business focused CS degrees in Germany with significant overlap in the courses.

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