A United States of Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: A United States of Europe

#21

Post by philwelch » Wed, May 22, 2024, 7:34 PM UTC

grotorea wrote: post #17

philwelch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proportional representation and coalition systems lead to deadlock. Belgium and Israel have gone years between stable governments because of the failure to form a coalition. Meanwhile in Germany, it’s impossible for a voter to predict ahead of time what kind of government to expect from voting for any given party because almost any party could become coalition partners with just about any other party. The two party s…

I don't think PR and formal coalitions have a monopoly on deadlock. The USA can have something similar whenever there's not a single party holding a trifecta, and even then between the Supreme Court and filibustering it's not really streamlined unified government. > Meanwhile in Germany, it’s impossible for a voter to predict ahead of time what kind of government to expect from voting for any given party because almo…

> The USA can have something similar whenever there's not a single party holding a trifecta, and even then between the Supreme Court and filibustering it's not really streamlined unified government.

In a parliamentary system you don’t even have an executive branch unless you can get a coalition. And when it comes to Supreme Courts, not only does nearly every parliamentary country also have one, they sometimes have more of them. Most European countries are subject to ECtHR on top of their national supreme courts.

> You have to trust that the party you're voting for will negotiate in a way that is acceptable to you. I'm not convinced that's worse than your situation in a two party system where you're guaranteed a coalition that's probably not exactly what you wanted.

But at least you know what you’re voting for.

Re: A United States of Europe

#22

Post by 0x5f3759df-i » Wed, May 22, 2024, 8:59 PM UTC

nairboon wrote: post #3

Terr_ wrote: post #2

> In reality, the EU remains at the crossroads between the ‘Europe of the people’ and the ‘Europe of the governments’. The trajectory of the USA might be instructive, in either a positive or cautionary sense: It began primarily as a group of governments, and then over time more popularly-democratic aspects crept in along with increasing federal power. (For example, disintermediating state legislatures from the select…

The constitution and organization of Switzerland was largely inspired by the philosophy behind the USA. Thus they are very similar in terms of the organization of the state. From this point of view, I think the fundamental flaw of the USA is the majoritarian electoral system. Majoritarian representation tends to degenerate in the long run into a gridlocked two-party system, a prime example is the USA. Thus most of th…

That’s part of it but the two party system is more downstream of the specific idiosyncrasies of the electoral college with it’s bizarre rules that end up with state delegations choosing a winner if no one wins an absolute majority of electoral college votes. So you cannot have more than two candidates without the election being thrown out and decided by the House.

Other countries with majoritarian systems like the UK and Canada at least have 3 viable parties, even if there are two that are usually the biggest.

Re: A United States of Europe

#23

Post by mmaniac » Thu, May 23, 2024, 9:30 AM UTC

linearrust wrote: post #19

constantcrying wrote: post #18

Political unity has only ever been achieved at a point where the severity of outside pressures forced a group of people together. If you look at the EU right now, it is hard to imagine a group less likely to come together. In the eyes of most member states it is still an economic union, whose purpose it is to allow international trade and allow economic benefits to the members, largely by allowing access to the enorm…

> Political unity has only ever been achieved at a point where the severity of outside pressures forced a group of people together. Political unity generally comes from 'within' not from 'without'. A group of elites or an ethnic group forms the 'center' or the state and pacifies and unifies those around them. This unity is normally achieved through force. It's true throughout the world - the united kingdom, france, r…

> I forgot which historian said it, but he described the last 200 years of european history as 'anglo-russian meddling to prevent a franco-german unity ( aka 'the united states of europe' )'.

Please let us know if you recall who it is, I'm intensely curious about this.

Re: A United States of Europe

#24

Post by philwelch » Thu, May 23, 2024, 1:58 PM UTC

artoghrul wrote: post #14

philwelch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proportional representation and coalition systems lead to deadlock. Belgium and Israel have gone years between stable governments because of the failure to form a coalition. Meanwhile in Germany, it’s impossible for a voter to predict ahead of time what kind of government to expect from voting for any given party because almost any party could become coalition partners with just about any other party. The two party s…

The two-party system is not really a coalition system, is it? For one, there is no way for minority factions within parties to exert effective control over the other factions, no? A prime example being how the centrist majority of the Democratic party crushed the democratic socialist faction.

The process for doing this is primary elections, which you can participate in if you want to!

Re: A United States of Europe

#25

Post by mattpallissard » Fri, May 24, 2024, 12:19 AM UTC

artoghrul wrote: post #14

philwelch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proportional representation and coalition systems lead to deadlock. Belgium and Israel have gone years between stable governments because of the failure to form a coalition. Meanwhile in Germany, it’s impossible for a voter to predict ahead of time what kind of government to expect from voting for any given party because almost any party could become coalition partners with just about any other party. The two party s…

The two-party system is not really a coalition system, is it? For one, there is no way for minority factions within parties to exert effective control over the other factions, no? A prime example being how the centrist majority of the Democratic party crushed the democratic socialist faction.

We call them caucuses.

Re: A United States of Europe

#26

Post by mattpallissard » Fri, May 24, 2024, 12:24 AM UTC

troad wrote: post #5

nairboon wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution and organization of Switzerland was largely inspired by the philosophy behind the USA. Thus they are very similar in terms of the organization of the state. From this point of view, I think the fundamental flaw of the USA is the majoritarian electoral system. Majoritarian representation tends to degenerate in the long run into a gridlocked two-party system, a prime example is the USA. Thus most of th…

The gridlock is a feature, not a bug. The system is deliberately rich in checks and balances so as to make it difficult for a slim majority or a determined plurality to hijack the state. You basically require a supermajority for any radical change. I think a gridlocked majoritarian system is probably preferable to a proportional one that requires governments to get in bed with far right/left 'kingmakers' who hold the…

As an American I agree with grid lock being a feature. I don't like rapid change. Let's argue for a few years so we have time to think of all the angles.

It doesn't seem like that's how it works, but it does. Even the sensationalist headlines morph and the talking heads add/change their propaganda over time.

It's got it's draw backs for sure, but the system is working as intended.