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Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#21

Post by eigenspace »

ta1243 wrote: post #12
eigenspace wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. If you're only driving 5-10k miles a year, car ownership seems like a massive unnecessary burden, electric or ICE. But given you're measuring in miles, I guess there's a good chance you're not from somewhere with adequate public transit and bicycle infrastructure. In my opinion, we really need to focus less on person…

k is kilo. As in 1000. 5000-10000 miles. UK average is about that. But you go chuntering on about your high density living and fantasies that there will be public transport at 2130 tonight from the nearby village 8 miles away where the scout hut is back to my house. Whenever I try to get a taxi to the station (a mere 9 miles away) it's massively unreliable, had to get a hotel in the past because they just don't exist…

Yes, I accidentally dropped the k, I know you meant 5-10k.

> UK average is about that.

Yes, and the average UK person is driving more than they would if there was better public transportation availability.

Sure, not every household is going to be well served by public transportation, especially in very rural settings, but way more rural areas can be well served by public transport than they currently are.

If you think you need to live in London, Paris, or NYC to have good public transit, you're simply wrong. There's lots of rather rural places that actually do have quite good trains and bus options.

There'll still be lots of people for whom a car makes the most sense, but we can still strive to reduce that by giving more options and building better infrastructure.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#22

Post by soco »

exar0815 wrote: post #8

I won't drive an electric car as long as possible. Not because they are electric or I have any love at all for cumbustion cars, but because I work in the industry. I see what's inside those things, I see what the plans for the next generation are, and they are a cost-cutters wet dream. They are getting even more over-engineered, fully stuffed of useless, cheap, consumer-standard-manufactured gadgets, with software so…

I won't argue with the general feeling, but keeping it realistic, a consumer-standard article like a car is just expected to have consumer-standard gadgets in it. And car software is already garbage to begin with, almost makes you wonder how programmers/managers/qa working in the industry manage to sell their CV outside it - but garbage quality is pretty much our standard nowadays, so there's that..

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#23

Post by [deleted] »

eigenspace wrote: post #16
votepaunchy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. > If you're only driving 5-10 miles a year, car ownership seems like a massive unnecessary burden, electric or ICE. This is off by a factor of 1000.

Sorry, typo I did mean 5-10k miles

[deleted]

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#24

Post by speedbird »

eigenspace wrote: post #7
ta1243 wrote: post #6

Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. My fuel costs are about 15p/mile in my old rustbucket (45mpg is about 10 miles per litre, £1.50 a litre) An EV will do say 4 miles per kWh, so in theory at 30p/kWh that's 7.5p per mile, half the price. 5000 miles a year that's £375 saving with electric. Add in another £160 VED saving (again my old bucket) and that's £5…

> Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. If you're only driving 5-10k miles a year, car ownership seems like a massive unnecessary burden, electric or ICE. But given you're measuring in miles, I guess there's a good chance you're not from somewhere with adequate public transit and bicycle infrastructure. In my opinion, we really need to focus less on person…

Not possible if you like in the sticks and want to live a normal life.

Major metropolis with lots of public transport infrastructure and an Uber only 5 minutes away at 3am, sure.

Personal experience both.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#25

Post by realusername »

exar0815 wrote: post #8

I won't drive an electric car as long as possible. Not because they are electric or I have any love at all for cumbustion cars, but because I work in the industry. I see what's inside those things, I see what the plans for the next generation are, and they are a cost-cutters wet dream. They are getting even more over-engineered, fully stuffed of useless, cheap, consumer-standard-manufactured gadgets, with software so…

> They are getting even more over-engineered, fully stuffed of useless, cheap, consumer-standard-manufactured gadgets, with software so unbelievabley shit that wouldn't be allowed to run on anything else, design and engineering teams lead by testosteroned morons - and everything targeted on rent-seeking and commodifying for the quick buck.

Same for new ICE cars, maybe even worse than electric cars.

If you want a reasonable "just-works" minimalist design, you have to buy a used car prior 2010. Anything newer will suffer from those issues.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#26

Post by ta1243 »

eigenspace wrote: post #21
ta1243 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

k is kilo. As in 1000. 5000-10000 miles. UK average is about that. But you go chuntering on about your high density living and fantasies that there will be public transport at 2130 tonight from the nearby village 8 miles away where the scout hut is back to my house. Whenever I try to get a taxi to the station (a mere 9 miles away) it's massively unreliable, had to get a hotel in the past because they just don't exist…

Yes, I accidentally dropped the k, I know you meant 5-10k. > UK average is about that. Yes, and the average UK person is driving more than they would if there was better public transportation availability. Sure, not every household is going to be well served by public transportation, especially in very rural settings, but way more rural areas can be well served by public transport than they currently are. If you thin…

The average car in the netherlands is driven about 8000 miles a year.

Doesn't matter how good the public transport is, it can not sustain a journey from my small village to a larger village at 10pm at night on a friday night. Nor will it meet me at 2350 from the railhead in a city a 30 minute drive away. On the way back from that station at that time of night I pass maybe 2 or 3 cars, none of which came from or go to anywhere near my house.

Even if there was some form of ondemand public transport, the carbon impact would be far more than my own car.

The reason I don't travel 40,000 miles a year by car is because I use other forms of public transport when I can. However even with 90% of my domestic (by mile) being public transport, I still need a car for the last 10%. The tax system in the UK punishes that behaviour (I pay far more in tax per litre of petrol used than my neighbour who drives everywhere), it's either all-or-nothing.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#27

Post by rwmj »

ta1243 wrote: post #26
eigenspace wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I accidentally dropped the k, I know you meant 5-10k. > UK average is about that. Yes, and the average UK person is driving more than they would if there was better public transportation availability. Sure, not every household is going to be well served by public transportation, especially in very rural settings, but way more rural areas can be well served by public transport than they currently are. If you thin…

The average car in the netherlands is driven about 8000 miles a year. Doesn't matter how good the public transport is, it can not sustain a journey from my small village to a larger village at 10pm at night on a friday night. Nor will it meet me at 2350 from the railhead in a city a 30 minute drive away. On the way back from that station at that time of night I pass maybe 2 or 3 cars, none of which came from or go to…

> The average car in the netherlands is driven about 8000 miles a year.

Could be (I don't know) because all the people living next to bike lanes and with good public transport have given up their cars, so the only car users left are the ones who really need to drive a lot, raising the average.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#28

Post by ta1243 »

rwmj wrote: post #27
ta1243 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average car in the netherlands is driven about 8000 miles a year. Doesn't matter how good the public transport is, it can not sustain a journey from my small village to a larger village at 10pm at night on a friday night. Nor will it meet me at 2350 from the railhead in a city a 30 minute drive away. On the way back from that station at that time of night I pass maybe 2 or 3 cars, none of which came from or go to…

> The average car in the netherlands is driven about 8000 miles a year. Could be (I don't know) because all the people living next to bike lanes and with good public transport have given up their cars, so the only car users left are the ones who really need to drive a lot, raising the average.

The netherlands has 520 passenger cars per 1000 people. The UK 544. Not exactly a world of difference.

https://www.acea.auto/files/ACEA-report-vehicles-in-use-euro...

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#29

Post by eigenspace »

rwmj wrote: post #27
ta1243 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average car in the netherlands is driven about 8000 miles a year. Doesn't matter how good the public transport is, it can not sustain a journey from my small village to a larger village at 10pm at night on a friday night. Nor will it meet me at 2350 from the railhead in a city a 30 minute drive away. On the way back from that station at that time of night I pass maybe 2 or 3 cars, none of which came from or go to…

> The average car in the netherlands is driven about 8000 miles a year. Could be (I don't know) because all the people living next to bike lanes and with good public transport have given up their cars, so the only car users left are the ones who really need to drive a lot, raising the average.

It's the opposite actually. Car ownership in the netherlands is actually rather high because it's a relatively rich country where people can easily afford to own a car for the occasional convenience.

The fact that there's great public transport there makes it so that those cars don't get driven as much for day-to-day errands as cars do in other places, so they have overall less driving. 8000 miles a year is relatively low.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#30

Post by edude03 »

denvrede wrote: post #3

For me personally (I spoke to others and they mostly agree) the biggest downside is that for "public" charging I pay a 100% premium. My costs at home (I live in a rented apartment with no possibility of charging an EV) for 1kw/h are 0.30€. The average price for charging publicly here are 0.59€. Plus the hassle of having a quadrillion providers for which I would have to check first what the cheapest one at a given cha…

I used to have a bmw i3 then a model y while I lived in an apartment building. In my experience although public charging is more expensive the amount you pay overall is cheaper than an equivalent gas vehicle such that it’s probably not worth trying to find the cheapest station more than once.

For example to go “500km” in the model y charging at home with the cheapest electricity it’s about $6. At a super charger I pay about $30. 5x more expensive but for my f150 I pay $120-150 for the same distance. Between the two options charging at the super charger every time is still 4x cheaper than gas even though I could save even more charging at home

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