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Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

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Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#21

Post by lucian1900 »

no_more_death wrote: post #5

This is why I learned Vim and why I find its theory of interaction superior to other text editors. Maybe a century down the road we will have vim-customized keyboards. Tangible keyboards will always have a place, I think, because they provide tactile feedback, unlike "pictures under glass" like you get with touch screens.

It would be quite ironic to have vim-customised keyboards, seeing as how vi's interaction models is modelled on an old, now obsolete keyboard.

I agree that modal editing is a great idea, but I'm not convinced vim's is the best (even though I do use it in any editor).

Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#22

Post by gouranga »

__alexs wrote: post #19
asciilifeform wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Piano keys have centimeters of travel distance. Chorded computer keyboards - not necessarily. One can "cheat" by requiring only the faintest movements from the fingers. The Microwriter arguably does this. Also: have you ever seen a court stenographer at work? You are simply wrong. (At least, with regards to the limits of what human hands are ultimately capable of.)

Stenotypes are also called shorthand machines for a reason. They might be able to type 300 WPM, but that's partially because they aren't writing english.

We rarely write in English.

If you've ever used TouchDevelop on a Windows phone, you will see why domain specific keyboards are a good idea:

http://i1-handheld.softpedia-static.com/images/software/scre...

I can actually code faster on my phone than a PC with a keyboard.

Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#23

Post by gouranga »

Lewton wrote: post #18

imo, the [1]datahand keyboard makes a lot more sense than chorded keyboards. Each finger has access to four characters mapped to up, down, left or right. All it takes is a short movement of the finger to press a key. [1] http://cdn1.mobilemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/image_6...

It doesn't as not all movements are as accurate with your fingers.

Pushing down and aligning your fingers is incredibly accurate but rolling/moving your fingers is not.

Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#24

Post by gouranga »

lucian1900 wrote: post #21
no_more_death wrote: post #5

This is why I learned Vim and why I find its theory of interaction superior to other text editors. Maybe a century down the road we will have vim-customized keyboards. Tangible keyboards will always have a place, I think, because they provide tactile feedback, unlike "pictures under glass" like you get with touch screens.

It would be quite ironic to have vim-customised keyboards, seeing as how vi's interaction models is modelled on an old, now obsolete keyboard. I agree that modal editing is a great idea, but I'm not convinced vim's is the best (even though I do use it in any editor).

You'd end up with the following if you had a tailored keyboard which is not good for anyone:

http://mahast.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/keyboard.j...

Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#25

Post by Lewton »

gouranga wrote: post #23
Lewton wrote: post #18

imo, the [1]datahand keyboard makes a lot more sense than chorded keyboards. Each finger has access to four characters mapped to up, down, left or right. All it takes is a short movement of the finger to press a key. [1] http://cdn1.mobilemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/image_6...

It doesn't as not all movements are as accurate with your fingers. Pushing down and aligning your fingers is incredibly accurate but rolling/moving your fingers is not.

Hm, you might be right. But as how I understood it, the datahand is trying to let you use the same movements as you are already using on a normal keyboard, only without having to travel the full distance. I have a hard time seeing why that shouldn't work

Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#26

Post by gouranga »

Lewton wrote: post #25
gouranga wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't as not all movements are as accurate with your fingers. Pushing down and aligning your fingers is incredibly accurate but rolling/moving your fingers is not.

Hm, you might be right. But as how I understood it, the datahand is trying to let you use the same movements as you are already using on a normal keyboard, only without having to travel the full distance. I have a hard time seeing why that shouldn't work

Try typing with your nails down on the keys i.e. with curled up hands and you will see.

Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#27

Post by mkmkmmmmm »

gouranga wrote: post #15
aidenn0 wrote: post #12

As far as proffessional equipment goes, we're there... I have an 8 core workstation with 8gb of ram and 2 24" monitors running linux with a window manager heavily customized by me. Compare that to a macbook air.

Hey, I have a 2 core ThinkPad t61, with 4gb of ram and a 14" WXGA screen and I bet my equipment is as professional as yours... However, 99% of that equipment is a black box designed for the lowest grade user which is the very apt point of the article. You are not a professional - you are a salt mine worker as am I.

This kind of reasoning makes the same presupposition as the article's author. But it is ironic that he mentions musicians--a professional musician's tools, like a programmer's are basically high quality versions of the amateur's.

The conjecture about keyboards being suboptimal is verifibly true, but that does not automatically extend to the machine as well. I also suspect coding experiences will be pretty subjective.

Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#28

Post by mkmkmmmmm »

gouranga wrote: post #24
lucian1900 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be quite ironic to have vim-customised keyboards, seeing as how vi's interaction models is modelled on an old, now obsolete keyboard. I agree that modal editing is a great idea, but I'm not convinced vim's is the best (even though I do use it in any editor).

You'd end up with the following if you had a tailored keyboard which is not good for anyone: http://mahast.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/keyboard.j...

Looks like it's good for someone who cannot be bothered to learn pinyin or wubi.

Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#29

Post by JackpotDen »

The issue unconsidered is that programming is nothing new. It's applicable algebra.

If we consider his idea in the realms of mathematics, amateurs and experts still only/mostly use a pencil, graph paper and their minds.

A keyboard and mouse is more than enough to code.

Re: Engelbart's Violin - chorded keyboards

#30

Post by JackpotDen »

JackpotDen wrote: post #29

The issue unconsidered is that programming is nothing new. It's applicable algebra. If we consider his idea in the realms of mathematics, amateurs and experts still only/mostly use a pencil, graph paper and their minds. A keyboard and mouse is more than enough to code.

On top of that, experts use linux as their OS. The average consumer doesn't know it exists.
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