The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023) • Hacker News Board

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#21

Post by mamonster » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 9:14 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #4

davedx wrote: post #3

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

>It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!"

Well, the whole point of the Mafia is that it's a sort of reactionary movement to defeudalisation/uniformisation in places that are far away from where the power centralizes (the exact same reason why Yakuza started after the unification and why a lot of gangsters are from Kyushu).

It also pisses me off that people use the word mafia inappropriately, for example "Russian Mafia" or "Moroccan Mafia" have no meaning, these are not feudal organization like Mafia or Yakuza

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#22

Post by lynx23 » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 9:15 AM UTC

sparrowInHand wrote: post #18

lynx23 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, like every goverment, then. "The government always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place." Yes, checks out.

Well, if its all equal, why not move to mogadishu?

No, thanks. I've seen Black Hawk Down... Too many cowboys in that area.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#23

Post by actionfromafar » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 9:15 AM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #14

xandrius wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually trying to argue in support of the mafia?

> Are you actually trying to argue in support of the mafia? No, I'm saying that it's not exactly the same as fuedal overloads are. Organised crime are a business, first and foremost, and like all businesses (whether legal or not) focuses on profit.

Feudal overlords operated under similar constraints as the mafia today. They couldn't be too bothersome, or the peasantry could support a rival.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#24

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 9:16 AM UTC

sparrowInHand wrote: post #6

toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

He also might be a upstart bandit in the first place. Such nobleness of mind and character. Gods chosen!

[deleted]

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#25

Post by paganel » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 9:34 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #4

davedx wrote: post #3

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

At this point I'd take the feudal Lord a hundred times over any democracy, at least the feudal lord had the obligation to provide housing and a piece of land for his people/peasants, unlike democracy, which by this point is just an empty concept used to keep the current hegemonic system in place (and I could understand how come what they call democracy is still popular in places like this one here, places where people don't have to worry all that much about mortgages/paying rent)

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#26

Post by tgv » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 9:39 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #25

toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

At this point I'd take the feudal Lord a hundred times over any democracy, at least the feudal lord had the obligation to provide housing and a piece of land for his people/peasants, unlike democracy, which by this point is just an empty concept used to keep the current hegemonic system in place (and I could understand how come what they call democracy is still popular in places like this one here, places where peopl…

That's the edgy opinion of someone with no knowledge of the past.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#27

Post by paganel » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 9:59 AM UTC

tgv wrote: post #26

paganel wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd take the feudal Lord a hundred times over any democracy, at least the feudal lord had the obligation to provide housing and a piece of land for his people/peasants, unlike democracy, which by this point is just an empty concept used to keep the current hegemonic system in place (and I could understand how come what they call democracy is still popular in places like this one here, places where peopl…

That's the edgy opinion of someone with no knowledge of the past.

Nothing edgy about it, I think about this subject quite often, as a matter of fact. And I'll ignore the "no knowledge of the past" thing, even though a discussion around Marc Bloch's La Société féodale could be interesting (I've read it in Italian [1], what other edition/translation would have you recommended?)

[1] https://www.lafeltrinelli.it/societa-feudale-libro-marc-bloc...

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#28

Post by xrd » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 10:07 AM UTC

One of my favorite books is Excellent Cadavers. It's about two Italian judges that systematically root out corruption in Sicily, and pay for it with their lives. It is an incredible history of the path of fascism to the modern day Mafia. And the most interesting thing for me was how connected the Mafia are to the top levels of Italian government. Andreotti was definitely complicit.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#29

Post by beAbU » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 10:57 AM UTC

xandrius wrote: post #10

davedx wrote: post #3

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

It's just like you have no idea how mafias operate. Cheap affordable housing from a government is absolutely not the same as cheap affordable housing from a criminal organisation.

No snark intended below:

I'm genuinely curious what the difference is according to you.

From where I'm standing I sometimes struggle to see the difference between my government and a mafia. They behave in uncanny similar ways.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#30

Post by toyg » Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 10:58 AM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #8

toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

> It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" It's not exactly the same, because > - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae noctis, without any recourse. If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals. I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, b…

> If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals

That's not really the case. The only way people can express a loss of support is by telling authorities where to find this or that boss in hiding, which happens extremely rarely (because a lot of bosses are not actually in hiding at any given time). In some cases, towns are effectively led from afar - footsoldiers just roll in whenever they need to, like before local elections - so there is very little anyone can do.

> the organisation's management usually enforce their rules on their own members rigourously and violently, too.

This is a romanticised view. There are no rules, what matters is only who can project the most violence and/or control the most money.

I agree that they're a business first and foremost, but a lot of mafiosi do actually enjoy expressing violence. Most of them come from poor backgrounds and lived through traumatizing experiences pretty early in life.