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What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

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Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#21

Post by masklinn »

slibhb wrote: post #8
setgree wrote: post #5

I saw this discussed on Marginal Revolution today as well. My main question is whether the gains are fundamentally zero-sum, at least in the short term. Some districts implement flexible pay and some don’t, and then the best teachers move to get paid more. And the places that get left behind…? In the long-run, increased pay ought to lead to more high-quality teachers entering the profession. But in the short term, th…

> But in the short term, this scheme might judt redistribute talent in ways that reinforce existing patterns of inequality. Aren't you assuming that rich districts with higher grades implement flexible pay? I think it would be the poor districts with worse grades that would be most likely to want to shake things up.

The main characteristic of poor districts is that they’re poor, which means they don’t have the means to implement high pay schemes. Rich districts do.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#22

Post by daniel-thompson »

masklinn wrote: post #16
setgree wrote: post #5

I saw this discussed on Marginal Revolution today as well. My main question is whether the gains are fundamentally zero-sum, at least in the short term. Some districts implement flexible pay and some don’t, and then the best teachers move to get paid more. And the places that get left behind…? In the long-run, increased pay ought to lead to more high-quality teachers entering the profession. But in the short term, th…

An other more direct issue is Goodhart’s law: if teacher compensation is linked to a specific metric, then that metric is what you’ll get. If the metric is test scores, then you’ll see: - teaching to the test rather than educating - trying to get rid of left behind, slow, or difficult students (already an issue for generations in test-oriented private institutions — as opposed to the more remedial “last chance” ones)…

and cheating

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#23

Post by mberning »

We frequently put the burden on teachers and “the system” for outcomes, but rarely do we talk about improving our cultural and societal attitudes towards education. If you come from a family and community that does not value education and views it as free child care, how good your teacher is does not matter very much.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#24

Post by thiago_fm »

Make dumb study, get dumb results.

Even running a study like this inside the same school you would get wrong data and come to the wrong conclusions, just think about it for a second.

Worse is people wasting time in academia researching ideas with so many holes in it.

This is why measuring schools makes no sense, the creators of the study were likely top students at their time, yet they lack some basic common sense.

Grading is broken, first start by coming with a better alternative

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#25

Post by StefanBatory »

mberning wrote: post #23

We frequently put the burden on teachers and “the system” for outcomes, but rarely do we talk about improving our cultural and societal attitudes towards education. If you come from a family and community that does not value education and views it as free child care, how good your teacher is does not matter very much.

.. and when it's socially acceptable to say "Oh, I suck at math" even from parents, that's making things even worse.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#26

Post by fnordpiglet »

slibhb wrote: post #8
setgree wrote: post #5

I saw this discussed on Marginal Revolution today as well. My main question is whether the gains are fundamentally zero-sum, at least in the short term. Some districts implement flexible pay and some don’t, and then the best teachers move to get paid more. And the places that get left behind…? In the long-run, increased pay ought to lead to more high-quality teachers entering the profession. But in the short term, th…

> But in the short term, this scheme might judt redistribute talent in ways that reinforce existing patterns of inequality. Aren't you assuming that rich districts with higher grades implement flexible pay? I think it would be the poor districts with worse grades that would be most likely to want to shake things up.

Additionally it’s a side channel way to simply pay most teachers less and some teachers more, saving money in cash strapped districts. Accountants and MBAs love that sort of stuff.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#27

Post by brodouevencode »

dwater wrote: post #12

I was a public school teacher that worked in a district that attempted to measure teacher value add. There was limited pay for performance based on that metric. And the district I worked in was majority racial minority and majority living in poverty. "Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of…

What if the standardized tests aren't administered by the teacher? That seems like it would be an easy solution to get around the cheating problem.

As for teaching to the test, what's the real downfall of doing that? Colleges use standardized test scores as the biggest or one of the biggest criteria in admission.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#28

Post by readyman »

dwater wrote: post #12

I was a public school teacher that worked in a district that attempted to measure teacher value add. There was limited pay for performance based on that metric. And the district I worked in was majority racial minority and majority living in poverty. "Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of…

The sick idea that profit is the onlyway to motivate humans is historically idiotic. It is an outcome of pathetic efforts to legitimate capitalism, a system of exploitation.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#29

Post by bena »

dwater wrote: post #12

I was a public school teacher that worked in a district that attempted to measure teacher value add. There was limited pay for performance based on that metric. And the district I worked in was majority racial minority and majority living in poverty. "Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of…

Bingo.

My wife is a special education teacher and so much of her work does not get reflected on a test.

Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance

#30

Post by whywhywhywhy »

Hard to think of an argument why they shouldn’t be.

You can argue the raw materials are something they can’t control but plenty of other industries have the same issue, real estate, hiring, and we still pay them on performance.

Think we’d see accepting poor behavior, teachers writing off or actively bullying students tank if this were implemented properly.

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