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Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

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21–30 of 52 posts

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that you don't learn how to be a good person or do anything terribly useful by studying chess, but how is playing music or building cool things with Legos substantially different? Just do what you please.

The point is that the extremes are bad. If someone spent ten hours a day doing nothing but building legos the observation would be exactly the same: It's not good for you. Chess can become a sick obsession. I know. I've been there. I have played chess for 12 hours straight on more than one occasion. It leaves you rattled and with nothing good to show for it. Contrast that to spending twelve hours with a mixed bag of…

All the same, I don't think playing that much really does much for your chess skills either. There's really only so much information you can absorb in a day. As an analogue, Richter, one of the greatest pianists of all time, regularly only practiced 3 hours a day.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#22

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960 addresses some of these concerns.

Since Deep Blue beat Kasparov, it's also worth considering that playing chess could be likened to poorly reproducing the output of existing software; wouldn't writing that software be a more meaningful challenge?

There may be lessons to be learned from chess beyond what one might derive from a short stint of it. Achieving a higher level of mastery -- in many domains -- reinforces an appreciation of the extent of one's ignorance in others.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#23

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

Your comment about the human database is exactly why I prefer the game of go to chess. I'm good enough at chess (B-level player) that to improve I'd have to become more of a database.

Your comment about game vs life is why I have not studied go very seriously.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#24

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

It is exactly the same for competitive gaming, and for everything else that's competitive I think. At some point, I was competing at a national level (France) on Warcraft III, I realized that if I were to be in top8 or above, I had to play 50 hours / week. That's a full-time job, and the level of specialization and skill specificity you need is really high. I chose to work on my studies instead. Now I sometimes play StarCraft II (not really got time recently), but not above "for fun" nor more than 5 hours / week, or I quickly get frustrated that I'm no longer at a top master / grand master level.

Games are fun, they teach you a lot of things, they can be recreative if you're not all-in. If you don't want to make it your career though, keep focused on the main thing you want to do with your life.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#25
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this rings true at the highest levels of skill for most activities. The better you get, the more specialized your skillset has to become to continue winning, and the less applicable it becomes to other things. Regardless, I think there's something to be said for competing at a high level. It provides more than just entertainment, as some skills do translate if you let them: The confidence you gain by knowing…

I agree as general points. I'll disagree as it applies to Chess. The only way to escalate the ranks in chess is to become a living database. That transforms people. I've seen it and it's ugly. The chess you learned as a kid was a game. This chess is a very different animal. Off the top of my head, a profession that requires people to become a human database is something like pharmacology. These folks have to know a l…

In my opinion, up to a very, very high level, the importance of opening knowledge is vastly overrated.

The two highest rated players in the world (Carlsen and Aronian, neither of them participating in this world championship match) frequently just aim to get a playable position out of the opening and still succeed in outplaying very strong opposition in the late middlegame/endgame. This despite the fact that it would difficult to find two better examples of "human chess databases".

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#26

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

Recent 48-hour obsessions of mine that follow a similar pattern: Starcraft 2, Minecraft.

I indulge them as long as they don't suck up more than 100 productive hours or so of my life. At that point, I chop them off and file them away.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#27

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

We have similar chess history, but I think you're being emotional here in your "rebuttal of chess". I've had similar thoughts but I've come to the natural conclusion that all that matters in the end is whether I enjoy playing it or not.

Some things you mentioned don't add up. You don't have to be a human database to play chess as a hobby, even at club level. Playing at club level can be fun, and can definitely be a healthy hobby which doesn't take more time than any other sports or any other gaming activity. If it's not fun for you, or if you obsess over how better you could get if you just studied this or that opening, or how you'll never even reach 2200 ELO, then chess is probably not for you or not fit to be a hobby for you, that is true.

In short, thinking you would gain more mentally that would help with your engineering skill-set by playing chess instead of just, well, studying and working as an engineer, is fallacious to begin with. If there aren't any such studies, which I doubt, then why would you assume that? Of course, if all you want to do in life is being a better engineer, then anything but doing that is a "huge waste of time", not just chess.

But I think I still understand you emotionally as we had similar thoughts. Maybe, like me, you too rationalized your time spent in chess by saying to yourself that it helps your focus and concentration at work etc., but that's really not any more logical than rationalizing smoking, in the end you're just fooling yourself spending time doing something you enjoy. I'd think this was obvious, and I knew it even when as I was doing it myself. Maybe you just needed that external heads-up, from that older engineer you mentioned.

On a completely different note, I could still argue chess is not entirely useless in that sense. Compared to legos, you're forgetting that chess is a social activity. You're facing real people, and beating them can build confidence, and losing also has its lessons - socially, not chesswise. I've learned a lot about competition at a young age, and I've experienced what "winning" and "losing" is like. This is different than team sports, because you're out there alone by yourself, with no luck involved. And although we don't share the same success with him, a friend who doesn't spend more than a few hours per week playing chess became rather successful (2000+ ELO), and I see that it made him a lot more confident. Also for what it's worth, a lot of people - you may find the notion stupid - perceive him to be a very smart person, which is pretty valuable socially. I think that is an incredible value gained for that effort, arguably more efficient than a college education considering all this talk nowadays about the bubble.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#28

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

I've hit the same wall a number of times in my life across a variety of games/past times/hobbies.

Two things which I have always come away with is a wonderful collection of amazing people and a keen understanding of how to improve at something as quickly as possible.

I think that is pretty much what life is all about.

PS: in case anyone is interested, my obsessions in chronological order have been; quake, skydiving, paintball, quake3fortress, online poker, starcraft 2.

PPS: online poker was different to all the others in that I actually made money doing it, which had the upside of granting me "spending money" and the downside of turning it into a second job.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#29

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

It is exactly the same for competitive gaming, and for everything else that's competitive I think. At some point, I was competing at a national level (France) on Warcraft III, I realized that if I were to be in top8 or above, I had to play 50 hours / week. That's a full-time job, and the level of specialization and skill specificity you need is really high. I chose to work on my studies instead. Now I sometimes play…

It's minor, but competitive gamers generally do at least acquire mechanics that can be used for other games. I'm not sure if chess is like that.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#30
post #9

I don't play chess or understand why this matters. What is going on?

Modern chess matches like this require a huge amount of preparation. Computers are much better than even the best humans at chess, and they are (in the last decade or so) the number one tool for grandmasters when preparing. Each GM has a support team, which at this level includes HPC compute specialists. This match includes two players that over a year, beyond rigorous practice, include in-depth computer analysis of…

When we have computers that can number crunch enough to beat the best humans in a game, I can't help but think that human competition in that game is no more exciting than humans competiting to do something like multiplying a bunch of large numbers together. Of course, I do believe that all human mental work is just number crunching (i.e. Turing computation), so this idea would seem to apply to all human mental competition given the right algorithms and enough computing power. Not to mention that machines can best humans in a lot of athletic events, but that doesn't seem to ruin those for me. And yet, I still just can't get excited about a discrete perfect information game like chess when computers have all but solved the game.
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