New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College • Hacker News Board

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#21

Post by georgieporgie » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:22 PM UTC

adyus wrote: post #17

ryguytilidie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know close to 50% of new grads are unemployed right? This is millions of kids a year who were told to get educated and now have no job waiting for them when they do. Acting like millions of kids should just get a job mopping floors and drop the entitlement is super ignorant and borders on dangerous. I would put a lot of this blame on the fact that tax cuts for the rich that were supposed to "raise demand for work…

I think the OP's comment held a seed of wisdom, even though it wasn't properly expressed. The point I got from his post was that recently graduated and unemployed kids should stop waiting to be offered jobs that obviously don't exist anymore, and bring out the entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great (a long time ago). The point is not to mop floors for $20, but to create a website (essentially a business)…

What's the success rate among entrepreneurs? Don't most small businesses tank within the first three years? Does this really help if "millions of kids a year" are entering the workforce?

That said, looking at my (much) younger cousins and their friends, it strikes me that the latest generation of 20-somethings are already impressively entrepreneurial. However, I don't see many of their businesses scaling enough to support a family, much less employ scads of others.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#22

Post by jchrisa » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:24 PM UTC

nextstep wrote: post #13

cperciva wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In certain fields the "go into debt to pay for an education which will help you get a good job" strategy works well. Unfortunately, governments and educational institutions have taken "college graduates earn X% more and have a Y% lower unemployment rate" statistics and pretended that they apply to all college graduates, regardless of their field. Only a fool would think that a degree in underwater basket weaving woul…

It hasn't been too long since I was starting college. For freshman (in the US at least), colleges encourage students to try lots of classes and take their time picking a major. Many schools don't require students to declare a track until they are in their sophomore year -- halfway through a four-year program! Many can be completed in 2-3 years (even "hard" majors, like physics), and the schools design the degree prog…

Economics is the wrong reason to go to college. If you go to college to learn you'll be in much better shape. Even if you study basket weaving.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#23

Post by georgieporgie » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:24 PM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #4

mojaam wrote: post #2

Ugh, so depressing... go to college, rack up enormous amounts of debt, and hope to find a job so that you can start paying off the monthly minimums for the seemingly the rest of your life.

I know education is a common theme here on HN, and I always read articles like this. I still think education (esp. in US and UK) is ripe for entrepreneurial disruption, and I enjoy seeing what investors are doing in this space. The system is clearly broken, because incentives are out of proportion to costs.

I think the best entrepreneurial disruption you could provide in education would be to provide education on entrepreneurial methods. :-)

I'm in my 30s, and I have quite a lot of various skills, but spotting areas of opportunity is still not among those skills.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#24

Post by soup10 » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:27 PM UTC

ryguytilidie wrote: post #14

holdenc wrote: post #12

For some people a college degree can lead to a crippling level of entitlement, and unwillingness to do the kind of work they hoped to escape by attending college. A college degree doesn't preclude someone from waiting tables, cleaning up messes and answering phones. Though many graduates seem to be confused about this. For unemployed colleges grads -- here's a rudimentary formula for success. Start a free website wit…

You know close to 50% of new grads are unemployed right? This is millions of kids a year who were told to get educated and now have no job waiting for them when they do. Acting like millions of kids should just get a job mopping floors and drop the entitlement is super ignorant and borders on dangerous. I would put a lot of this blame on the fact that tax cuts for the rich that were supposed to "raise demand for work…

>Deciding that millions of new graduates aren't getting jobs because they are lazy is one of the more ignorant and lazy arguments I've ever seen.

How do you interpret the linked article then? "Mopping floors" doesn't literally mean mopping floors, it means settling for the jobs that are available, not the jobs you want.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#25

Post by cperciva » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:28 PM UTC

nextstep wrote: post #13

cperciva wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In certain fields the "go into debt to pay for an education which will help you get a good job" strategy works well. Unfortunately, governments and educational institutions have taken "college graduates earn X% more and have a Y% lower unemployment rate" statistics and pretended that they apply to all college graduates, regardless of their field. Only a fool would think that a degree in underwater basket weaving woul…

It hasn't been too long since I was starting college. For freshman (in the US at least), colleges encourage students to try lots of classes and take their time picking a major. Many schools don't require students to declare a track until they are in their sophomore year -- halfway through a four-year program! Many can be completed in 2-3 years (even "hard" majors, like physics), and the schools design the degree prog…

for many college freshman, the apparent difficulty of a subject is considered thoroughly, while the job prospects of a career path are a secondary consideration.

Right. My point was that this is partly because of the educational culture which promotes "getting a degree will make you earn more" rather than "getting a degree in subject X, Y, or Z will make you earn more". Students who enter college intending to study science but can't hack it would probably be better off dropping out; instead, most end up in liberal arts and are surprised when their degree turns out to be useless because all the advertising they ever saw promoted "having a degree" as the only relevant flag.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#26

Post by adyus » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:32 PM UTC

georgieporgie wrote: post #21

adyus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the OP's comment held a seed of wisdom, even though it wasn't properly expressed. The point I got from his post was that recently graduated and unemployed kids should stop waiting to be offered jobs that obviously don't exist anymore, and bring out the entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great (a long time ago). The point is not to mop floors for $20, but to create a website (essentially a business)…

What's the success rate among entrepreneurs? Don't most small businesses tank within the first three years? Does this really help if "millions of kids a year" are entering the workforce? That said, looking at my (much) younger cousins and their friends, it strikes me that the latest generation of 20-somethings are already impressively entrepreneurial. However, I don't see many of their businesses scaling enough to su…

Most successful entrepreneurs failed at least once until they made it. I can only speak from experience, the startup founder that I worked for had three failed attempts before he made it (relatively) big.

My other point was exactly that. Most small businesses will fail, but the ones that succeed will be the job creators (I hate that buzzword!) and hire the ones that didn't make it.

After having worked for a startup myself for a while, I am now ready to try it on my own. If I fail, there's always other successful startups I could work for. If I succeed, I'll need good employees, and someone who tried and failed (but learned from the experience) would be a prime candidate.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#27

Post by jiggy2011 » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:41 PM UTC

I'm not sure how college debt works in the USA but in the UK you don't have to payback the debt unless you are earning over a certain paycheck (£15k p/a or so I believe). So if you end up unemployed you don't have to worry about it.

Also the debt is written off after a certain number of years and the monthly payment is always calculated at a relatively modest amount compared to your earnings and deducted straight from your paycheck.

It's not counted as debt for the purposes of getting a loan or mortgage either, so essentially it's not something you really have to worry about as you will never get getting a court summons or baliffs through your door unless you have deliberately defrauded them.

How is it in the USA? Are you constantly chased for the debt regardless of your circumstances?

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#28

Post by Estragon » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:42 PM UTC

veyron wrote: post #10

Education bubble is slowly deflating. Drawing analogies to housing bubble: People would "flip" their college education for a high-paying job Easy loans made it possible for everyone to participate Education prices inflated faster than core inflation, setting a higher hurdle for students There are fewer jobs at palatable salaries (various reasons) Now we have boatloads of students saddled with an education that they c…

It's a little different, in that as far as I know, no one is trying to flog off CDSs or other swaps on Student Loan Asset Backed Securities. So it will come as a shock to the higher education industry, but may not have the broad impact that the housing and tech bubbles did.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#29

Post by gee_totes » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:42 PM UTC

jchrisa wrote: post #20

ryguytilidie wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part is that just like in the housing bubble, where lenders went into strawberry fields and offered home loans for 300k houses in california to undocumented immigrants making 10/hr and then asked for everyone else to bail them out because they are shocked the person wasn't able to afford the loan. Same thing applies here. You recruit a bunch of people who have no business being at college and certainly can'…

If I had student debt I'd be thrilled not to pay it back. This country needs a general debt strike or perhaps a jubilee.

A debt strike would be the ultimate 'hack' of our current economic system.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#30

Post by barik » Sun, May 20, 2012, 4:48 PM UTC

ryguytilidie wrote: post #14

holdenc wrote: post #12

For some people a college degree can lead to a crippling level of entitlement, and unwillingness to do the kind of work they hoped to escape by attending college. A college degree doesn't preclude someone from waiting tables, cleaning up messes and answering phones. Though many graduates seem to be confused about this. For unemployed colleges grads -- here's a rudimentary formula for success. Start a free website wit…

You know close to 50% of new grads are unemployed right? This is millions of kids a year who were told to get educated and now have no job waiting for them when they do. Acting like millions of kids should just get a job mopping floors and drop the entitlement is super ignorant and borders on dangerous. I would put a lot of this blame on the fact that tax cuts for the rich that were supposed to "raise demand for work…

"You know close to 50% of new grads are unemployed right?" No, I didn't know that, but the statistic itself is largely unhelpful without a demographic breakdown. I would be curious as to the distribution itself by degree. I would additionally hypothesize that degrees that are more "geared" towards entering the workforce (Engineering) would have significantly lower unemployment numbers than degrees that are primarily designed as an intellectual pursuit. While there is nothing wrong with intellectual pursuits, obtaining such as degree without the desire to ultimately enter academia is a strategically poor decision to make.

I imagine that re-stating this metric by degree will tell a very different story.