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The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

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Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#21

Post by pvg »

thriftwy wrote: post #18
pvg wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the hole in question? You're complaining the article calls a repressive regime repressive. What's the actual objection? That it wasn't repressive? It was really repressive!

That now sounds like that Anarcho-Syndicalist dialogue from Monty Python's Holy Grail, where Arthur represses peasants by existing. And I'm absolutely no fan of communism. The hole in question that absolute majority of Bulgarians' experience was shaped by what the economy can let them do and what it can't - talking about both pre-1990 and post-1990. Late communism was more like an asylum which is run by inmates. It w…

You've still not said what is wrong with calling a repressive regime repressive. Is it because you think it wasn't actually repressive? Or maybe because you think it got less repressive in its later days? Even that is inaccurate, there are significant ways in which it got more repressive, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_Process

Edit about your edit:

Late communism was more like an asylum which is run by inmates. It was as repressive as they personally were.

I can't say I understand this but it sounds like a tautology you can apply to just about any human organization.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#23

Post by thriftwy »

pvg wrote: post #21
thriftwy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That now sounds like that Anarcho-Syndicalist dialogue from Monty Python's Holy Grail, where Arthur represses peasants by existing. And I'm absolutely no fan of communism. The hole in question that absolute majority of Bulgarians' experience was shaped by what the economy can let them do and what it can't - talking about both pre-1990 and post-1990. Late communism was more like an asylum which is run by inmates. It w…

You've still not said what is wrong with calling a repressive regime repressive. Is it because you think it wasn't actually repressive? Or maybe because you think it got less repressive in its later days? Even that is inaccurate, there are significant ways in which it got more repressive, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_Process Edit about your edit: Late communism was more like an asylum which is run by in…

I'm just not sure what your claims about regime's repressivenes are based on. Were you there? Can you compare that with your current existence?

> sounds like a tautology you can apply to just about any human organization

Exactly! It wasn't much better or worse than your garden variety society. That you won't use all the repressive words against.

> The "Revival Process" was in turn followed by the forced expulsion of over 300,000 Muslims in 1989.

Isn't that exactly the action of post-Perestroika, now-democratic Bulgaria? Indeed, as I have heard most of ethnic cleansings happen in young democracies as opposed to autoritarian states. In young unstable democracy, it suddently seems like a good idea for 70% to get rid of a 30% minority (numbers may vary). After all, you can vote solidly in favor of that.

If Socialist Bulgaria wanted to get rid of muslims it would not wait until 1989. They had 40 years to do that if they wanted. They didn't. The new, emancipated one did.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#24

Post by pvg »

thriftwy wrote: post #23
pvg wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've still not said what is wrong with calling a repressive regime repressive. Is it because you think it wasn't actually repressive? Or maybe because you think it got less repressive in its later days? Even that is inaccurate, there are significant ways in which it got more repressive, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_Process Edit about your edit: Late communism was more like an asylum which is run by in…

I'm just not sure what your claims about regime's repressivenes are based on. Were you there? Can you compare that with your current existence? > sounds like a tautology you can apply to just about any human organization Exactly! It wasn't much better or worse than your garden variety society. That you won't use all the repressive words against. > The "Revival Process" was in turn followed by the forced expulsion of…

Were you there?

Yes.

Isn't that exactly the action of post-Perestroika, now-democratic Bulgaria?

No. This was done under communist rule, as outlined in the Wikipedia page. Many Bulgarian ethnic Turks were able to return after the fall of communism as is mentioned there as well. A political party representing ethnic minority interests was one of the first formed after the end of communist rule. It remains significant part of the Bulgarian political landscape to this day - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Rights_and_Freedo...

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#25

Post by npace12 »

loopdoend wrote: post #20

In case anyone doesn't know - Bulgaria is the most beautiful country in Europe and is rich with cultural history. Ruins and artefacts everywhere. Please come and check it out - Sofia is amazing this time of year.

[flagged]

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#26

Post by pvg »

A thread from a couple of years ago on a related topic

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26107924

And a small historical bit of snark that's probably in the book (which I haven't had a chance to read yet):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26108958

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#27

Post by npace12 »

mrkramer wrote: post #9
pavel_pt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You think Jeff would ship a product that was paid with a stolen card....

they (cdnow) used to ship products ordered with any "generated" credit card that passed their basic regex validation even if that number wasn't an actual bank account.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#28

Post by pvg »

gremlinunderway wrote: post #7

Really cool to see other attempts at historically understanding Warsaw Pact and fUSSR tech industries. Every other treatment I've ever seen for describing the Soviet computing and internet development has always just been a lazy "well it wasn't innovative like silicon valley" which, while not necessarily wrong, sounds more like awkward and insecure attempt at justifying our own processes, and also isn't all that desc…

we were wrong about certain aspects

I think the wrongness of popular perception tends to go in the other direction. People often misunderstand just how badly the Soviet bloc lagged in high technology, precision manufacturing at scale, etc. This makes sense because they remember and have read about the military parity, the brief period of (very roughly) comparable middle class standard of living, etc. But Moore's law (among other things) dramatically exacerbated the technology gap - you can have, say, a steel or oil industry that's a couple of decades behind the state of the art. An IC industry that far behind is barely a meaningful IC industry at all.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#29

Post by thriftwy »

pvg wrote: post #24
thriftwy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just not sure what your claims about regime's repressivenes are based on. Were you there? Can you compare that with your current existence? > sounds like a tautology you can apply to just about any human organization Exactly! It wasn't much better or worse than your garden variety society. That you won't use all the repressive words against. > The "Revival Process" was in turn followed by the forced expulsion of…

Were you there? Yes. Isn't that exactly the action of post-Perestroika, now-democratic Bulgaria? No. This was done under communist rule, as outlined in the Wikipedia page. Many Bulgarian ethnic Turks were able to return after the fall of communism as is mentioned there as well. A political party representing ethnic minority interests was one of the first formed after the end of communist rule. It remains significant…

Why it didn't happen in 1949 then, or in 1959, or in 1969, or in 1979? What have changed?

I can see a clear link between perestroikas and ethnic cleansings, but perhaps you can reason that away.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#30

Post by pvg »

thriftwy wrote: post #29
pvg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were you there? Yes. Isn't that exactly the action of post-Perestroika, now-democratic Bulgaria? No. This was done under communist rule, as outlined in the Wikipedia page. Many Bulgarian ethnic Turks were able to return after the fall of communism as is mentioned there as well. A political party representing ethnic minority interests was one of the first formed after the end of communist rule. It remains significant…

Why it didn't happen in 1949 then, or in 1959, or in 1969, or in 1979? What have changed? I can see a clear link between perestroikas and ethnic cleansings, but perhaps you can reason that away.

It started in the 70s, which is in the Wikipedia page. Bulgaria did not meaningfully have 'perestroika' which you can google your way to. I don't think I have to reason anything away if you're simply unfamiliar with the history - you can just look it up or at a minimum, read the links we're talking about.
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