Why AWS Supports Valkey • Hacker News Board

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#21

Post by citrin_ru » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:34 AM UTC

ephemeral-life wrote: post #15

matthewmacleod wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately it seems that everyone loses - the Redis project slowly fades, nobody can use its code on open-source projects any more, and AWS continues on unaffected by the change.

> nobody can use its code on open-source projects any more This just shows you have no idea what sspl entails. It states you can use it for whatever you want, but if you want to provide the product as a service, you need to share all your infrastructure code for providing the service. Its basically agpl with a carve-out for AWS and that is so valid because AWS are vultures. They probably make the most money in the wo…

In at lest some (many?) companies AGPL and SSPL are not in the list of allowed licenses (developers not allowed to use open sources components unless they have one of approved licenses). Even if technically they can use Redis not breaking SSPL, lawyers often err on a side of caution.

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#22

Post by tsimionescu » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:38 AM UTC

ephemeral-life wrote: post #15

matthewmacleod wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately it seems that everyone loses - the Redis project slowly fades, nobody can use its code on open-source projects any more, and AWS continues on unaffected by the change.

> nobody can use its code on open-source projects any more This just shows you have no idea what sspl entails. It states you can use it for whatever you want, but if you want to provide the product as a service, you need to share all your infrastructure code for providing the service. Its basically agpl with a carve-out for AWS and that is so valid because AWS are vultures. They probably make the most money in the wo…

Except that SSPL has some complex requirements, is not tested in any court, and is not compatible with any other open source license. So you can't for example incorporate the new Redis into a GPL/AGPL piece of software, at all.

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#23

Post by blowski » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:38 AM UTC

watermelon0 wrote: post #14

hackcasual wrote: post #7

It's hard to quantify, but I think Amazon would have to be in the top contenders for most value gotten from open source software

Wouldn't that apply to all cloud providers, not just AWS? All of them are heavily based on open source software, from Linux, KVM/Xen, and K8s to MySQL/Postgres, Kafka, Cassandra, etc.?

I’d guess the OP is right in nominal terms, because I think those companies combined have made less profit than AWS.

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#24

Post by skywhopper » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:38 AM UTC

ephemeral-life wrote: post #15

matthewmacleod wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately it seems that everyone loses - the Redis project slowly fades, nobody can use its code on open-source projects any more, and AWS continues on unaffected by the change.

> nobody can use its code on open-source projects any more This just shows you have no idea what sspl entails. It states you can use it for whatever you want, but if you want to provide the product as a service, you need to share all your infrastructure code for providing the service. Its basically agpl with a carve-out for AWS and that is so valid because AWS are vultures. They probably make the most money in the wo…

Operating a reliable Postgres service is an entirely different set of technologies, expertise, and resources than just the software itself. AWS doesn’t make money off of the Postgres code. They make money off of providing a reliable and hands-off Postgres hosting system that includes compute, security, scaling, backups, and upgrades. The Postgres code itself is only a small part of the work and resources that go into providing such a service. Your dismissive attitude for the expertise and resources that go into quality system operation is really depressing.

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#25

Post by floating-io » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:38 AM UTC

tonyhb wrote: post #13

tsimionescu wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course. That is a major reason why people use open source. And since AWS was a contributor to Redis, why it would be absurd for them to pay license fees on a project they helped build and maintain.

Yeah, they probably could/should. It'd take a lot to get developer adoption and buy in to a separate product that AWS builds themselves, so they adopted Redis. Easy money. It's easier to piggyback on something that won while making lots of money from it and say "well, I helped..." if things chanbge. Then, they chastise the creators as bad people once the gravy train stops. AWS benefited from hosted redis before contr…

"Chastise the creators?"

Redid Labs did not create Redis. They were the original leeches in this, in a way, from my understanding. They just bought the trademark from the dude who actually did create it.

Someone else made more money on the property they were trying to appropriate from the community, so they decided to add an artificial barrier to competition and found out what happens when the other players are bigger than them.

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#26

Post by dig1 » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:39 AM UTC

It's interesting how Redis's decision is often defended while AWS and other 'big corps' are criticized. Let's not forget that Redis was a collaborative effort built on the contributions of many, including those funded by big corporations: gcc/compilers, kernel, editors, VMs, etc. If the Redis authors, who were part of this collaborative ecosystem, decided to change their approach, it's their prerogative. However, it's worth noting that many others were left with a sense of dissatisfaction after the license change.

The same is true for ES, Mongo, and Grafana (to name a few). If you want to use a restrictive license, start your project with it, period. Don't bait people by giving something for free and then making all sorts of excuses later.

IMHO, small companies and developers ultimately lose here. ES and Mongo still use and rely on AWS for their managed offerings. OpenSearch (mainly pushed by AWS) is vibrant and very alive. Redis will be ditched by distros and die a slow death, and (probably) Valkey will be in the next distro major versions. But we (small companies and devs) now have to spend time migrating and moving things around without any additional value.

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#27

Post by skywhopper » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:39 AM UTC

watermelon0 wrote: post #11

hbogert wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And redis doesn't want to pay contributors. Same gist, same shortsighted take on the whole matter. Based on the open source license redis had before, what did aws do wrong? They didn't even have to contribute back, yet they did. Investors of redis based their SaaS offering on open source and community work. Now that they achieved critical mass they want to reneg on the license.

There are multiple hosted Redis providers, not just Redis Labs and AWS. I'm not sure why Redis OSS couldn't live on as open source product, while companies (including Redis Labs) offer managed Redis solutions.

It does live on. It’s called “Valkey” now.

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#28

Post by floating-io » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:40 AM UTC

tonyhb wrote: post #20

hbogert wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole open source model is scratching each others back but your own just a little bit more. But you make it sound as if aws was hypocritical for contributing and at the same time making money with it. Well ehh, isn't that the whole deal?

No, not given the people who created Redis, built distribution, made it a standard didn’t get paid. Open source isn’t about letting someone else gain from your work. It’s about openness. That’s why it’s of course in AWS’ benefit to support a fork. They claim to have helped the project therefore should be trusted going forward, despite latching onto it after the work was done to gain adoption. That’s fairly controllin…

See my above comment; Redis Labs did not create redis.

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#29

Post by veselin » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:40 AM UTC

It seems recent years give us a lot of licenses (for core infra software) and now for LLMs. They all say in very legalese basically: these top 5-10 tech companies will not compete fairly with us, thus they are banned from using the software. The rest are welcome to use everything.

I wonder if US monopoly regulation actually starts to work well, which I see some signs of happening, will all this license revert back to fully open source?

Re: Why AWS Supports Valkey

#30

Post by skywhopper » Sat, Apr 06, 2024, 9:41 AM UTC

tonyhb wrote: post #13

tsimionescu wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course. That is a major reason why people use open source. And since AWS was a contributor to Redis, why it would be absurd for them to pay license fees on a project they helped build and maintain.

Yeah, they probably could/should. It'd take a lot to get developer adoption and buy in to a separate product that AWS builds themselves, so they adopted Redis. Easy money. It's easier to piggyback on something that won while making lots of money from it and say "well, I helped..." if things chanbge. Then, they chastise the creators as bad people once the gravy train stops. AWS benefited from hosted redis before contr…

Do you think it’s trivial to operate a reliable and scalable Redis hosting service?