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US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

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Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty inefficient, yes. Thermodynamics is a harsh mistress. But if the other choice is "throttle down the wind farm, because the grid doesn't need that much power" - then a really cheap/simple/safe (but inefficient) storage tech could prove pretty useful.

One can get higher round trip efficiency (practically, perhaps 65%) using pumped thermal storage. Here, one uses some thermal cycle in reverse to separate "cold" and "hot", then reverse that to discharge. This also reduces the maximum temperature needed to maybe 500 C, below the creep limit for cheap steel. The cold end would be maybe -100 C, stored in something like liquid hexane.

True. But the govt. report on this idea seems confident of 50% RTE, or 55% if they used a more-complex turbine system.

For limited & short-term use, the plant with vastly-more-expensive storage masses might make sense.

But as soon as you were faced with NIMBYs or environmentalists (hexane's MSDS is far closer to hydrogen fluoride's MSDS than it is to sand's), or if you are working in a less-prosperous part of the world...sand is great stuff.

Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#22
post #2

> The sand used in the thermal energy storage (TES) system could be heated to the range of 1,100 C using low-cost renewable power. [...] when electricity is needed, the system will feed hot sand by gravity into a heat exchanger, which heats a working fluid, which drives a combined-cycle generator. So this is definitely not a "bury your heating coils in a sand dune, then connect..." technology. Quartz melts (per Wikip…

Huh, it intuitively seems like piping working fluid to the sand ought to be easier than moving the sand to the working fluid. Is the moving-sand approach fundamentally desirable thing (I can't imagine why) or is it just a simplification for the proof of concept?

>> Is the moving-sand approach fundamentally desirable thing (I can't imagine why) or is it just a simplification for the proof of concept?

I suspect this is about operating temperatures. If you run pipes through the thermal mass then you will be slowly heating/cooling the entire mass. That means the temp will be constantly changing and would basically never be at optimum. But by withdrawing small amounts of sand to be cooled/heated separately, the bulk can remain at an optimum. Only the removed sand is cooled. So your tank of "hot" sand remains at the same temperature until the last bit of hot sand is gone, rather than it slowly cooling as you withdraw heat from the bulk. That no doubt makes thermal transfer more efficient and predictable.

Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#23
post #7

I am really intrigued by using sand for energy storage - what I don't get (not my field) is given a typical 2000sf house, located in the colder part of the country as an example, how much heat could be stored for how long? i.e. is it even feasible to use solar panels to power resistance heaters all spring/summer/fall, to save up enough heat to keep a house warm for the entire winter? if so, how many panels would you…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_thermal_energy_storag...

> In Alberta, Canada, the homes of the Drake Landing Solar Community (in operation since 2007), get 97% of their year-round heat from a district heat system that is supplied by solar heat from solar-thermal panels on garage roofs. This feat – a world record – is enabled by interseasonal heat storage in a large mass of native rock that is under a central park. The thermal exchange occurs via a cluster of 144 boreholes, drilled 37 metres (121 ft) into the earth. Each borehole is 155 mm (6.1 in) in diameter and contains a simple heat exchanger made of small diameter plastic pipe, through which water is circulated. No heat pumps are involved.

That development is 52 homes. They are presumably engineered to be highly energy efficient and it's not a perfect comparison to sand, but it's less than I'd have imagined.

Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#24
post #7

I am really intrigued by using sand for energy storage - what I don't get (not my field) is given a typical 2000sf house, located in the colder part of the country as an example, how much heat could be stored for how long? i.e. is it even feasible to use solar panels to power resistance heaters all spring/summer/fall, to save up enough heat to keep a house warm for the entire winter? if so, how many panels would you…

I don't think that the sand units you can install in your home have the ability to store energy across seasons. They are more like hot water heaters; heat when you have solar, but you can use some hot water at night when electricity is more expensive.

So this would be like, in a mild climate, the sun is going to keep your house warm during the day and you are generating some solar. You use the solar to heat up the sand, and then overnight, you recover some of that energy to use for heat. (I think you can get electricity back out of the heated sand as well, but it's like 70% efficient compared to >90% for a lithium battery. So I think the big application is in heating, less for charging your car after you get home from work.)

Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#25
post #7

I am really intrigued by using sand for energy storage - what I don't get (not my field) is given a typical 2000sf house, located in the colder part of the country as an example, how much heat could be stored for how long? i.e. is it even feasible to use solar panels to power resistance heaters all spring/summer/fall, to save up enough heat to keep a house warm for the entire winter? if so, how many panels would you…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_thermal_energy_storag... > In Alberta, Canada, the homes of the Drake Landing Solar Community (in operation since 2007), get 97% of their year-round heat from a district heat system that is supplied by solar heat from solar-thermal panels on garage roofs. This feat – a world record – is enabled by interseasonal heat storage in a large mass of native rock that is under a central…

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1.7155409

I live in Calgary and have seen a few articles about Drake Landing recently.

Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#26
post #7

I am really intrigued by using sand for energy storage - what I don't get (not my field) is given a typical 2000sf house, located in the colder part of the country as an example, how much heat could be stored for how long? i.e. is it even feasible to use solar panels to power resistance heaters all spring/summer/fall, to save up enough heat to keep a house warm for the entire winter? if so, how many panels would you…

The temperatures we’re talking about (1000C) would be incredibly dangerous in residential applications, plus a small installation would lose too much energy to the environment due to the ratio of surface area to volume. More practical IMO is to use a daily cycle like what Harvest Thermal is doing: store energy in your water heater tank during the daytime and release it at night.

Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#27
post #7

I am really intrigued by using sand for energy storage - what I don't get (not my field) is given a typical 2000sf house, located in the colder part of the country as an example, how much heat could be stored for how long? i.e. is it even feasible to use solar panels to power resistance heaters all spring/summer/fall, to save up enough heat to keep a house warm for the entire winter? if so, how many panels would you…

> winter's worth of heat in a 1000 gallon oil tank

That's a massive fire risk because it is combustible fuel. A pile of hot sand in an auxilary, non-flammable structure isn't going to catch fire.

Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#28
Heat storage has an aspect that was counterintuitive to me, but follows from basic geometry. It benefits greatly from large scale, since the ratio of the volume to surface area [1] decreases the larger you make a container. Accordingly, if a heat tank is large enough, the surface area becomes negligible relative to its volume, and it, in effect, becomes well-insulated by its own mass. For really big tanks, like might be used for an entire town to heat itself over a winter, practical self-discharge rates can be just a few % per month, which is better than most rechargeable battery technologies.

[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_of_surfac...

Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#29
post #7

I am really intrigued by using sand for energy storage - what I don't get (not my field) is given a typical 2000sf house, located in the colder part of the country as an example, how much heat could be stored for how long? i.e. is it even feasible to use solar panels to power resistance heaters all spring/summer/fall, to save up enough heat to keep a house warm for the entire winter? if so, how many panels would you…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_thermal_energy_storag... > In Alberta, Canada, the homes of the Drake Landing Solar Community (in operation since 2007), get 97% of their year-round heat from a district heat system that is supplied by solar heat from solar-thermal panels on garage roofs. This feat – a world record – is enabled by interseasonal heat storage in a large mass of native rock that is under a central…

Storing heat in bedrock sounds like a good idea, but there are risks, e.g. https://www.thelocal.de/20170818/this-historic-german-town-i...

Re: US Government funds pilot project for heated sand energy storage

#30
post #7

I am really intrigued by using sand for energy storage - what I don't get (not my field) is given a typical 2000sf house, located in the colder part of the country as an example, how much heat could be stored for how long? i.e. is it even feasible to use solar panels to power resistance heaters all spring/summer/fall, to save up enough heat to keep a house warm for the entire winter? if so, how many panels would you…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_thermal_energy_storag... > In Alberta, Canada, the homes of the Drake Landing Solar Community (in operation since 2007), get 97% of their year-round heat from a district heat system that is supplied by solar heat from solar-thermal panels on garage roofs. This feat – a world record – is enabled by interseasonal heat storage in a large mass of native rock that is under a central…

155 mm huh? Did they use NATO standard mortars to make these boreholes :p?
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