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Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

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Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#21

Post by lambda »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #7

It's up to the end user - if the GNU movement is somehow planning on restricting the ability of the user to use DRM'd software on their own systems, then they've gone completely off the rails.

Where in that did you see him advocating preventing the user from installing Steam? He's just saying that installing proprietary, DRM'd software reduces your freedom; so if you want to promote freedom, you shouldn't install that software on your computer.

One thing to keep in mind is that most of the time, he doesn't want to force anyone to do anything (other than make sure that code free if it was written under the GPL, even when modifications are made). He just suggests that people who value freedom do or don't do certain things.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#22

Post by tikhonj »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #9

Nonfree? Okay. DRM? Groan. But really, who cares, let the user decide. Why does the freeness of the OS have to predicate the distribution, license or otherwise of the software used on it?

The FSF does not dictate what you can and cannot install on your system! They really do "let the user decide".

However, just because you are free to do something does not mean you should. All the FSF is doing is presenting a clear, well-argued and rather balanced argument about whether you should support non-free games on Linux or not.

This is a complex issue and it is treated as a complex issue; all they do is provide their views on what would further free software most.

As to who cares: anybody who supports freedom of software cares. And, while such people are in the minority here (going off the OS poll I saw a while back), they still make up a significant percentage of the audience.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#23

Post by dsrguru »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #19
dsrguru wrote: post #14

"My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm." Did rms just admit that proprietary software can theoretically have benefits? What's this world coming to lol

That surprised me as well, I'm sure I've heard him say before that nonfree software is 100% unethical even on a free platform. Perhaps he realises that having steam + valve games would be a huge net win for desktop linux use. Even if you had mainly nonfree software , in theory desktop linux would still be quite a free system in the sense that there would be a level playing field amongst software devs.

Actually, that does seem to fit with the rational behind the LGPL. If you're going to write free software that replicates a proprietary program or library's functionality without adding anything new, rms believes you should make it available to the widest possible audience with the hope that more contributions will trickle back. However, I'm also sure I've heard him say that nonfree software is unequivocally unethical even on a free platform. Hell, didn't he say recently something about not being able to justify using proprietary medical equipment to save his life unless he immediately would embark on a quest to produce a free equivalent? Maybe he makes a distinction between trying to free future adopters from total proprietariness (i.e. in the case of games and LGPL'd libraries) versus trying to make people who have already taken the red pill 100% free.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#24

Post by jiggy2011 »

alecbenzer wrote: post #18
mquander wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free as in speech, not free as in beer, etc. It's not particularly ethical to sell food and refuse to tell anyone what's in the food, which is why we have various laws regarding that. Nor does it seem particularly reasonable to sell someone food under the condition that if they eat it in particular ways, you'll sue them.

While I understand this concept, is it not another consideration that people should receive compensation for their work? In most areas these two goals don't seem to conflict with one another, but in software they seem to, at least a bit, and I don't think I've ever seen something from rms or the fsf addressing this notion. Even if RMS's position is "Freedom is _absolutely_ uncompromisable in any form whatsoever, and…

Whenever rms has been asked this question he has 2 answers.

1) Custom software development (i.e bespoke client work) and 2) Crowdsourcing

The custom software argument seems odd, even though the main user (the client) would get the source code and freedom in that instance not only does it promote keeping software locked away as trade secrets, in most cases the actual end users will not get freedom with the software it will really just be senior management.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#25

Post by drivebyacct2 »

tikhonj wrote: post #22
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #9

Nonfree? Okay. DRM? Groan. But really, who cares, let the user decide. Why does the freeness of the OS have to predicate the distribution, license or otherwise of the software used on it?

The FSF does not dictate what you can and cannot install on your system! They really do "let the user decide". However, just because you are free to do something does not mean you should . All the FSF is doing is presenting a clear, well-argued and rather balanced argument about whether you should support non-free games on Linux or not. This is a complex issue and it is treated as a complex issue; all they do is prov…

Sorry, my post wasn't meant to be an attack on the FSF at all, I assure you.

I care too. But I'm not every user and I'm not prescribing something for someone else. I'm all in favor of (the FSF) informing people and empowering people to choose free software free of DRM, but I'm also not going to imply that using a free OS means forgoing games or other things that might require DRM because developers (think they) need it to protect their IP and make a profit.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#26

Post by mrsteveman1 »

ridiculous_fish wrote: post #20
mrsteveman1 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's their position actually, only that it's unethical to sell someone software they have no control over and no legal right to alter or work to understand, particularly if the software is actively undermining the user in various ways as DRM would. It's a black box so to speak. Someone else pointed out the food comparison, it would in fact be unethical to sell someone food without telling them how it…

Regarding the food comparison: Coca Cola is not behaving unethically by protecting their secret recipe. They have a responsibility to share allergen and nutritional information, but they have no obligation to provide sufficient information to reproduce their product. Extending the analogy to software, if your program accesses personal information, contacts remote servers, inserts itself into the kernel, etc. then you…

I actually think food is in a unique position where divulging every last ingredient is the only ethical way to do it. They may only have a current legal obligation to disclose known allergens, but that changes, we discover food sensitivities and reactions after things have been in wide use for long periods of time. Trusting the company and the regulatory bodies isn't enough with food.

If that means someone else can come along and reproduce it, tough.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#28

Post by mynegation »

Why would I care?

I understand the point of freedom for some software: say if tomorrow the whole nginx team decides to retire and I nginx is a critical part of my business, I have the option of taking over the maintenance.

But games are not like that. Games are entertainment and presumably a short-lived one. I play, I get bored, I move on. The games are also a product of diverse teams: it's not just programmers, but story editors, 2D/3D artists, composers, voice artists etc that create experience, not a tool or platform. Do you really want Hemingway's texts be licensed under GFDL so you could improve upon them? Or may be you want to get your hands on petabytes of data that went into production of Avatar so that you could fix a couple of landscapes?

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#29

Post by pippy »

dsrguru wrote: post #14

"My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm." Did rms just admit that proprietary software can theoretically have benefits? What's this world coming to lol

Programmers have to eat, and free software needs a supporting paradigm to be sustainable. With Firefox it's the search engine, with Apache it's support, only smaller projects can be made from pure passion. Any large company porting software to a platform will be good, as more people (and thus support) will come to Linux.

>Nonfree games (like other nonfree programs) are unethical because they deny freedom to their users

I get the feeling he lives in a fantasy world. Unethical is hitting a baby in the face, not allowing people to see how you wrote a computer programme.

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