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What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

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Re: What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

#21

Post by lucianbr »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #8

> Lebed professes that he did nothing wrong – he did nothing different from Wall Street analysts. He states that he learned how people react to the stock market and acted on that knowledge. So you trick people by lying to them, and it's ok because you take their money indirectly via the stock market. And because some analysts also do this (often suffering legal consequences), then it's definitely not wrong? Shameful.…

> The 2007–2008 financial crisis, or Global Economic Crisis (GEC), was the most severe worldwide economic crisis since the Great Depression. Predatory lending in the form of subprime mortgages targeting low-income homebuyers,[1] excessive risk-taking by global financial institutions,[2] a continuous buildup of toxic assets within banks, and the bursting of the United States housing bubble culminated in a "perfect storm", which led to the Great Recession.

(from wikipedia)

> In total, 47 bankers served jail time as a result of the crisis, over half of which were from Iceland

One example of countless that could be found, that legal consequences are the exception, not the norm.

Re: What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

#22

Post by Thorrez »

EGreg wrote: post #13
paulryanrogers wrote: post #8

> Lebed professes that he did nothing wrong – he did nothing different from Wall Street analysts. He states that he learned how people react to the stock market and acted on that knowledge. So you trick people by lying to them, and it's ok because you take their money indirectly via the stock market. And because some analysts also do this (often suffering legal consequences), then it's definitely not wrong? Shameful.…

The entire trading industry is a zero-sum game bro. For someone to win someone else has to lose. As is the advertising industry and surveillance capitalism industry that powers the “free web”. (Only at the edges is new value created. Most of it exists to have large institutionals take money from the small newbs, you’re the fish at the poker table.) And more broadly, capitalism exploits people. This is like blaming An…

>The entire trading industry is a zero-sum game bro. For someone to win someone else has to lose.

Traders add liquidity. That liquidity allows me to easily buy and sell stocks without waiting long periods or worrying about getting ripped off by the spread. And since the economy isn't zero-sum, it's possible for everyone to end up better than before.

Re: What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

#23

Post by everforward »

EGreg wrote: post #13
paulryanrogers wrote: post #8

> Lebed professes that he did nothing wrong – he did nothing different from Wall Street analysts. He states that he learned how people react to the stock market and acted on that knowledge. So you trick people by lying to them, and it's ok because you take their money indirectly via the stock market. And because some analysts also do this (often suffering legal consequences), then it's definitely not wrong? Shameful.…

The entire trading industry is a zero-sum game bro. For someone to win someone else has to lose. As is the advertising industry and surveillance capitalism industry that powers the “free web”. (Only at the edges is new value created. Most of it exists to have large institutionals take money from the small newbs, you’re the fish at the poker table.) And more broadly, capitalism exploits people. This is like blaming An…

> The entire trading industry is a zero-sum game bro.

It's not, and even a cursory understanding of what zero-sum games are and how the stock market works would tell you that.

How does the market grow if all trades are zero-sum? How do recessions happen if all trades are zero-sum?

Some portion of trades are zero-sum, maybe even most of them. Stock markets don't function if every trade was zero-sum.

Pump and dump schemes are bad because they distort information in the marketplace. The tradeoff is supposed to be that these major firms perform price discovery, and in exchange for providing accurate prices to the market, they are allowed to arbitrage off the difference between the current price and the "true" price.

Pump and dump schemes don't do any price discovery, they do the opposite. They create a fake new price, arbitrage off that difference, and then leave the followers holding the bag.

Re: What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

#24

Post by [deleted] »

EGreg wrote: post #13
paulryanrogers wrote: post #8

> Lebed professes that he did nothing wrong – he did nothing different from Wall Street analysts. He states that he learned how people react to the stock market and acted on that knowledge. So you trick people by lying to them, and it's ok because you take their money indirectly via the stock market. And because some analysts also do this (often suffering legal consequences), then it's definitely not wrong? Shameful.…

The entire trading industry is a zero-sum game bro. For someone to win someone else has to lose. As is the advertising industry and surveillance capitalism industry that powers the “free web”. (Only at the edges is new value created. Most of it exists to have large institutionals take money from the small newbs, you’re the fish at the poker table.) And more broadly, capitalism exploits people. This is like blaming An…

[deleted]

Re: What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

#25

Post by arkades »

falcor84 wrote: post #6

TL;DR: he argues that he did the same as everyone else on Wall street, so the SEC fines him $285,000, letting him keep more than half a mil of net profits. The system works as intended

The SEC only found wrongdoing in eleven trades, whose profit netted approx $272K. They did not penalize him for trades not found in violation of the law.

Clearly, too long, didn’t read.

Re: What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

#26

Post by gmd63 »

EGreg wrote: post #13
paulryanrogers wrote: post #8

> Lebed professes that he did nothing wrong – he did nothing different from Wall Street analysts. He states that he learned how people react to the stock market and acted on that knowledge. So you trick people by lying to them, and it's ok because you take their money indirectly via the stock market. And because some analysts also do this (often suffering legal consequences), then it's definitely not wrong? Shameful.…

The entire trading industry is a zero-sum game bro. For someone to win someone else has to lose. As is the advertising industry and surveillance capitalism industry that powers the “free web”. (Only at the edges is new value created. Most of it exists to have large institutionals take money from the small newbs, you’re the fish at the poker table.) And more broadly, capitalism exploits people. This is like blaming An…

Incorrect. Capitalism allows economies to accelerate the birth of new companies that benefit people.

When it's policed and regulated poorly, yes, scammers can proliferate. So don't vote for politicians who lie without apology, and don't let people you don't trust manage your money or provide you with goods or services.

Predatory people will exist with or without capitalism, only Capitalism is fine-grained democracy where you vote literally every day with your dollar.

I should also add, don't do any scamming or predatory behavior yourself. Because the most important vote you make for how society is run is with your own actions.

Re: What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

#27

Post by ghaff »

gmd63 wrote: post #16
ghaff wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Also the article mentions these were thinly-traded stocks. I assume the argument would be that today this sort of thing is happening because it's Tuesday. i.e. it's normalized and if you get burned, it's almost someone's civic responsibility to part you from your money.

Scammers who think it's their "civic responsibility" to dupe their fellow man with intentional fraud should think two or three times before committing to that logic. If they want to value someone's worth to the human team based on their gullibility to professional liars, it's not reaching very far for other like-minded logicians to value the scammers' worth based on their ability to navigate any other man-made stress…

My last crack should probably have had a /s. I don't actually believe that.

Re: What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

#29

Post by vincnetas »

lucianbr wrote: post #21
paulryanrogers wrote: post #8

> Lebed professes that he did nothing wrong – he did nothing different from Wall Street analysts. He states that he learned how people react to the stock market and acted on that knowledge. So you trick people by lying to them, and it's ok because you take their money indirectly via the stock market. And because some analysts also do this (often suffering legal consequences), then it's definitely not wrong? Shameful.…

> The 2007–2008 financial crisis, or Global Economic Crisis (GEC), was the most severe worldwide economic crisis since the Great Depression. Predatory lending in the form of subprime mortgages targeting low-income homebuyers,[1] excessive risk-taking by global financial institutions,[2] a continuous buildup of toxic assets within banks, and the bursting of the United States housing bubble culminated in a "perfect sto…

Well done Iceland. I would like to see ratio of jailed bankers to total bankers in country. Because now it looks like GES was mostly caused by Icelandic bankers :)

Re: What Happens When a Fifteen Year Old Pumps and Dumps with a Net Profit of $800k? (2002)

#30

Post by gmd63 »

ghaff wrote: post #27
gmd63 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scammers who think it's their "civic responsibility" to dupe their fellow man with intentional fraud should think two or three times before committing to that logic. If they want to value someone's worth to the human team based on their gullibility to professional liars, it's not reaching very far for other like-minded logicians to value the scammers' worth based on their ability to navigate any other man-made stress…

My last crack should probably have had a /s. I don't actually believe that.

I didn't take you as believing it, just as framing what others might think. I've seen the sentiment too and it frustrates me.
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