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Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

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Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#21

What is the point of laws like this? They are way too specific. Instead the Minneapolis City Council should come out with legislation prohibiting the re-definition of what a contractor is. Uber and Lyft claim that their drivers are contractors, but then also don't allow their drivers to set rates themselves. It's an absolute tragedy that governments just let companies get away with "disruption" when its really just f…

I think that this entire debate is skewed based in rather broken concepts of benefits. In the ways that ought to matter, rideshare drivers seem like contractors:

They set their own hours; overtime pay would odd, but perhaps too many hours should be banned on safety grounds. They bring their own equipment. They owe no particular allegiance to an “employer” like Uber or Lyft (and can work for more than one of them at once!). Even family leave would be somewhat odd, at least in the way that family leave works in the US.

But, in the US, this results is a problem: they are low-paid contractors, and contractors don’t get certain critical employment benefits (automatically tax-deductible health care at group rates is the big one), and the result is extremely problematic.

Perhaps a much better solution would be to let drivers be contractors but to fix the benefit situation. Insurance should not be tied to employment! I, as as independent contractor, should be able (or required) to purchase (or have provided to me by the state) insurance under identical terms to those that employees benefit from. In fact, changing jobs or taking a break from work should have no effect on my insurance plan or the taxation thereof! Contractors should be eligible for Medicare and Social Security just like employees. And perhaps family leave should even be a state benefit: after all, the presence of children benefits society and the state (future labor and tax revenue, not to mention that children are nice to have around), and this benefit does not depend on whether the parents are employees, college students, low-paid contractors or high-paid contractors.

With all of that fixed, allowing people to put miles on their car to provide a useful service for not-amazing contractor pay doesn’t actually seem so bad to me.

Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#22

Good riddance. The whole zirp decade saw these random companies like airbnb, Uber show drastic disregard of the law and subsidizing users with VC money but all that couldn't last because they aren't real businesses.

What is your concern? It's the VCs that are losing money by subsidizing non profitable companies. Why should the government step in to disallow these companies? Don't drivers know how much they'll be paid ahead of ride acceptance?

Because they are dumping... With their contractors.

Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the most idealistic can change their tune as soon as they begin to be negatively affected. A good example might be Oregon completely walking back their drug legalization or San Francisco drug testing for welfare. https://abcnews.go.com/US/oregons-drug-decriminalization-law... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/drug-test-we...

>A good example might be Oregon completely walking back their drug legalization Links to an article about how Oregon is partially rolling back their drug decriminalization policy. 1. Oregon never decriminalized drugs and 2. The policy was supposed to implement treatment programs that never materialized. Further as an Oregonian. No one voted for people to be able to openly use drugs wherever they wanted, but most didn…

I wasn't aware of this (and neither were local lawmakers), but ironically it is actually illegal in Oregon as of 1971 for any local government body to pass a law targeting the public consumption of alcohol and drugs. This threw a major wrench in plans to control the rampant public use of fentanyl and meth around Oregon cities, and this likely contributed to us to rolling back small time possession to a misdemeanor.

Although there were exceptions for limiting public alcohol use in proximity to schools and such, there were no such exceptions for hard drugs (since they were already illegal).

Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#24
post #10

> The measure requires ride-hailing companies to pay drivers at least $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute for the time spent transporting a rider — or $5 per ride, whichever is greater — excluding tips. Whether the rates are reasonable or not, the obvious move would be for Uber/Lyft to comply and pass the costs on to the riders, just like taxi companies have been doing forever. By instead pulling out entirely they ar…

I’m sure there’s a plethora of companies ready to move in and take their business.

Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A good example might be Oregon completely walking back their drug legalization Links to an article about how Oregon is partially rolling back their drug decriminalization policy. 1. Oregon never decriminalized drugs and 2. The policy was supposed to implement treatment programs that never materialized. Further as an Oregonian. No one voted for people to be able to openly use drugs wherever they wanted, but most didn…

I wasn't aware of this (and neither were local lawmakers), but ironically it is actually illegal in Oregon as of 1971 for any local government body to pass a law targeting the public consumption of alcohol and drugs. This threw a major wrench in plans to control the rampant public use of fentanyl and meth around Oregon cities, and this likely contributed to us to rolling back small time possession to a misdemeanor. A…

The issue is really that the initiative system is, quite frankly, a terrible way to govern and pass complex policies.

Had the legislature implemented this they would have been able to spend time investigating potential problems such as these and plan for a smoother rollout.

I voted for and still support measure 110 in principle. I would also be just fine with laws criminalizing public use. The two are perfectly compatible policies.

Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#26
post #24
post #10

> The measure requires ride-hailing companies to pay drivers at least $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute for the time spent transporting a rider — or $5 per ride, whichever is greater — excluding tips. Whether the rates are reasonable or not, the obvious move would be for Uber/Lyft to comply and pass the costs on to the riders, just like taxi companies have been doing forever. By instead pulling out entirely they ar…

I’m sure there’s a plethora of companies ready to move in and take their business.

I haven't heard of any of them.

Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#27
post #24
post #10

> The measure requires ride-hailing companies to pay drivers at least $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute for the time spent transporting a rider — or $5 per ride, whichever is greater — excluding tips. Whether the rates are reasonable or not, the obvious move would be for Uber/Lyft to comply and pass the costs on to the riders, just like taxi companies have been doing forever. By instead pulling out entirely they ar…

I’m sure there’s a plethora of companies ready to move in and take their business.

I mean, if the holy Free Market is as wonderful as some people say, a new and better alternative will take their place.

Right?

Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#28
post #27
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure there’s a plethora of companies ready to move in and take their business.

I mean, if the holy Free Market is as wonderful as some people say, a new and better alternative will take their place. Right?

This is a really elementary misunderstanding of free market principles. That theory only holds if the market is actually free.

As an extreme example, if they regulated minimum $1000 per ride. No logical person, free market oriented or not, would expect "alternatives" to take their place.

Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#29
post #24
post #10

> The measure requires ride-hailing companies to pay drivers at least $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute for the time spent transporting a rider — or $5 per ride, whichever is greater — excluding tips. Whether the rates are reasonable or not, the obvious move would be for Uber/Lyft to comply and pass the costs on to the riders, just like taxi companies have been doing forever. By instead pulling out entirely they ar…

I’m sure there’s a plethora of companies ready to move in and take their business.

Uber and Lyft combined have raised upwards of $20 billion in venture funding and have been operating unprofitably for the last decade and a half. There's a reason the "free market" cannot simply replace them in a day.

Re: Lyft, Uber to leave Minneapolis after city council forces higher driver pay

#30
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if the holy Free Market is as wonderful as some people say, a new and better alternative will take their place. Right?

This is a really elementary misunderstanding of free market principles. That theory only holds if the market is actually free. As an extreme example, if they regulated minimum $1000 per ride. No logical person, free market oriented or not, would expect "alternatives" to take their place.

Could you give an example of such a truly free market so we have a common baseline for a discussion?
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