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Colombia's Special Word for "You"

nytimes.com

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Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#21

Post by bdjsiqoocwk »

macintux wrote: post #3
Gualdrapo wrote: post #2

Not all of Colombia uses that word - it's more of a thing of an specific region. My parents were born there, but as they were brought to Bogotá in an early age, they barely use it. Though I use it more than them as I feel it conveys more sincerity than the "official" ones (tú, usted). Weirdly enough, some colombians seem to despise this word or look down on us who use it.

I'm not surprised: in the U.S., regional dialects or accents are often the subject of mockery or disdain.

This isn't specific to the US. In my (very small) home country, people who live in the capital perceive themselves as not having an accent, whereas all the other parts of the country have accents which sound provincial.

Everyone everywhere is looking for excuses to put other people down, I guess.

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#22

Post by bdjsiqoocwk »

jyunwai wrote: post #14
narag wrote: post #10

So I'll add another fading oddity from my own hometown in the south of Spain. We use ustedes (short of very archaic "vuestras mercedes" BTW) instead of vosotros . That would seem not so odd, being ustedes the plural form of formal "you" usted , if not because ustedes should match "they" in verbal forms, while in fact it match plural "you". So no "ustedes saben" but "ustedes sabéis". Even usted/ustedes is fading away,…

As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks. For example, a university course I took tested for the proper conjugation of verbs with "vosotros/as" (with its typical usage in Spain). But I later read about some debate over why the usage of vosotros/as was tested, but not the usage of vose…

> As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks.

As a person who learned Spanish as a foreign language, let me assure you that none of this matters.

What matters is learning the language well enough to communicate without causing too much strain on the other person. If you can achieve this with a foreign language everyone will be really impressed and will understand if you learned one variant instead of another.

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#23

Post by telesilla »

narag wrote: post #10

So I'll add another fading oddity from my own hometown in the south of Spain. We use ustedes (short of very archaic "vuestras mercedes" BTW) instead of vosotros . That would seem not so odd, being ustedes the plural form of formal "you" usted , if not because ustedes should match "they" in verbal forms, while in fact it match plural "you". So no "ustedes saben" but "ustedes sabéis". Even usted/ustedes is fading away,…

Isn't this the same in Mexico and other central american countries? I don't know what they don't use vosotros there but perhaps it's a link to the reason in your home town. Ustedes is very normal in Mexico and use of vosotros indicates you are a foreigner (a native speaker should confirm but that's my experience)

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#24

Post by kinow »

losvedir wrote: post #17
savq wrote: post #12

(Person that actually uses sumercé here.) The article is reading way too much into it, and it forgets a very important piece of information: The origin of usted is "vuestra merced". Spanish had T-V distinction, like most romance languages, but usted superceded vos as the formal 2nd person pronoun. sumercé is a word that had the same process, just starting from "su merced" instead, since in Colombia —like in all other…

Interesting. Portuguese (at least Brazilian, not sure how it is in Portugal) uses você for the 2nd person pronoun (and doesn't maintain a formal/informal distinction), and você came from vossa mercê. Since that's where usted, sumercé, and você came all come from, I'm guessing it must be a Latin thing?

> from vossa mercê

Which in some Brazilian soap operas sounded more like "vosmece" or "vosmercê", especially when said by people with country side accent (caipiras).

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#27

Post by narag »

telesilla wrote: post #23
narag wrote: post #10

So I'll add another fading oddity from my own hometown in the south of Spain. We use ustedes (short of very archaic "vuestras mercedes" BTW) instead of vosotros . That would seem not so odd, being ustedes the plural form of formal "you" usted , if not because ustedes should match "they" in verbal forms, while in fact it match plural "you". So no "ustedes saben" but "ustedes sabéis". Even usted/ustedes is fading away,…

Isn't this the same in Mexico and other central american countries? I don't know what they don't use vosotros there but perhaps it's a link to the reason in your home town. Ustedes is very normal in Mexico and use of vosotros indicates you are a foreigner (a native speaker should confirm but that's my experience)

Not sure if I explained it well. The difference between tú/vosotros y usted/ustedes is the former is informal while the latter is more formal, showing extra respect for the interlocutor. Usted/ustedes uses the same verbal forms as he/she/they, instead of the ones for "you".

The oddity is that this use of "ustedes" (only in plural, not for "usted") uses the verbal form for "you all" instead of the verbal form for "they", so it's weird for people from other parts of the country.

As for the use of "usted" in general, it's declining, specially in urban areas.

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#28

Post by narag »

jyunwai wrote: post #14
narag wrote: post #10

So I'll add another fading oddity from my own hometown in the south of Spain. We use ustedes (short of very archaic "vuestras mercedes" BTW) instead of vosotros . That would seem not so odd, being ustedes the plural form of formal "you" usted , if not because ustedes should match "they" in verbal forms, while in fact it match plural "you". So no "ustedes saben" but "ustedes sabéis". Even usted/ustedes is fading away,…

As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks. For example, a university course I took tested for the proper conjugation of verbs with "vosotros/as" (with its typical usage in Spain). But I later read about some debate over why the usage of vosotros/as was tested, but not the usage of vose…

Voseo is only used in Argentina, not sure if also in Uruguay. It's very localized, but still accepted and documented. Rest of speakers understand it no problem, it's very easy to get used to it.

This link to the Spanish Real Academia web shows a verb conjugation (scroll down):

https://dle.rae.es/hablar?m=form

It includes the usted,vos forms.

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#29

Post by moravak1984 »

gfaure wrote: post #15
jurimasa wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong: Spanish usted comes from the Arabic "ʔustāḏ", a honorific title meaning something like "distinguished person"

This is wrong — an entire spectrum of early modern variants starting from _vuestra merced_ to _vuesasted_ to _vusted_ to _usted_ has been demonstrated in written and printed matter across the centuries. It helps that written Spanish has been particularly well documented from the Age of Discovery onwards.

> has been demonstrated in written and printed matter across the centuries.

which centuries are we talking about?

> It helps that written Spanish has been particularly well documented from the Age of Discovery onwards.

and that was how many centuries after the Arab occupation?

There are tons of Arabic-origin words in Spanish, (alcoba, aljibe, almohada, cerveza, naranja, zanahoria), so the hypothesis of "usted" sharing said origin is plausible.

Maybe you have some relevant evidence to your theory?

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#30

Post by _3u10 »

savq wrote: post #12

(Person that actually uses sumercé here.) The article is reading way too much into it, and it forgets a very important piece of information: The origin of usted is "vuestra merced". Spanish had T-V distinction, like most romance languages, but usted superceded vos as the formal 2nd person pronoun. sumercé is a word that had the same process, just starting from "su merced" instead, since in Colombia —like in all other…

I hear or say vos almost every time I greet someone. I’m in Paraguay. Is Colombia a tu country?
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