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What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

lessannoyingcrm.com

21–30 of 102 posts

Re: What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

#21

(I work at the Less Annoying CRM) Since a few people have brought up similar points, I'd like to address them here. My gut instinct was to tell the patent troll to fuck off. I still wish we had done that. But that would set a terrible precedent and turn us into something that I hate: the App Store Pretty much everyone here hates how arbitrary and opaque the approval system is in the App Store. It seems like there's a…

You definitely showed all of us that your moral compass is tightly bound to the law. Instead of telling this despicable customer to leave, you gave him the grand tour.

Your blog post could have been an explanation of your reasoning and moral outrage, making you look better while providing transparency for your customers to trust.

Re: What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

#22
TL;DR

1. We reject customers who speak harshly about our software. They hurt our feelings, and we simply won't stand for that.

2. We welcome customers who rob and kill as a matter of business. If it satisfies minimum legal requirements, we are happy to make a buck.

3. We are so proud of our reasoning ability that we are going on record to say that we welcome patent trolls and the Ku Klux Klan.

Re: What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

#23
The content of the post was not at all what I expected.

The funny thing about principles is they're easy to have when they're not being tested. For example:

"'I really don’t want this guy’s money,' Tyler said at one point. We’re glad not to have it."

That's a lot easier to say when the offer of money is no longer on the table. I'm not sure at what point that was actually said, but in the article it comes after giving this guy a demo of the system, making genuine recommendations about his entire process, and doing actual customization work for the guy.

Patent trolling aside, using the law of the land to justify going against your personal conscience is a horrible idea.

Re: What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

#25

This is a great post because you go in expecting "we kicked that patent troll to the curb! Yeah!" and it turns out instead to be a reasoned set of implications of running a service-based business.

Reading the OP carefully, it is clear there are a lot of implications that can be derived from choosing to limit service outside of what the law requires.

As a thought experiment: Suppose Oracle and Google show up and want the service. Oracle is known to be an aggressive company with respect to business and so the company denies Oracle... but accepts Google since Google is friendlier. Does Oracle have grounds for suing ? I don't know. IANAL. But if I was in their position, I would be concerned until I consulted a lawyer.

What about other entities: political parties you disagree with? activist groups you disagree with? businesses who have unsavoury practices?

Put anther way, what can you legally say 'no' to, and what will get you sued for denying them?

If you can provide a straightfoward notice "no patent trolls" (enforceable in court), does that insulate you?

Again, I don't know. But it would give me pause to ponder if (when?) I am in the position of providing services.

--- more thoughts---

If you take the onus of determining who is moral onto your shoulders, you take responsibility for the inevitable screwup. And with that, you ensure that you will be arbitrary when you notice that one entity is an exception to your existing rules. You have to modify the rules, and that angers people (notice Blizzard's forums anytime changes come

Where the line? Where the exceptions? How to handle it? out!) This is a scaling problem.

Can you get away with not overthinking it and simply kicking the odiousness to the curb and hope that the scaling problem won't manifest?

Re: What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

#26
This had made HN and had the chance to win a lot of sympathy.

You backed down. That's fine, and - being no business owner or part of a startup myself, I'm clueless - maybe required. Maybe you just can't afford to alienate customers, especially as a small shop.

That said: You asked for an opinion. The idealist in me (see previous paragraph's disclaimer) would boot all of your imaginary customers. I DO believe, naively, that most people are good - or maximum chaotic neutral. In the grand scheme of things there aren't so many assholes to ignore and kick out.

But the list you presented, including the patent troll? Yeah, all of them should go. Politely, with recommendations maybe/help with the migration. No problem. But no, you cannot stay. We're sorry, but our company codex doesn't allow that.

Now THAT would've impressed me.

Re: What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

#27
post #18

How did he know they were a patent troll? From the description, they sound like the original owner of the patent, the patent appears to be newly granted, and we don't know if they are practicing the patent themselves or not. There is some variation in the meaning of "patent troll", but an original owner practicing the patent promptly going after people who infringe is not a patent troll under most accepted definition…

We received an email from the user outlining their entire business. They weren't the most extreme example of a patent troll (where you can't even tell what company it is) but they didn't seem to have any real products, and their use of the CRM would be entirely for managing the victims of their lawsuits.

This is kind of the point of the post though. We hated the idea of letting this person use our software, but is it really our place to make those decisions? Things are rarely black and white.

Having said that, I'm really glad this guy didn't stick around.

Re: What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

#28
post #23

The content of the post was not at all what I expected. The funny thing about principles is they're easy to have when they're not being tested. For example: "'I really don’t want this guy’s money,' Tyler said at one point. We’re glad not to have it." That's a lot easier to say when the offer of money is no longer on the table. I'm not sure at what point that was actually said, but in the article it comes after giving…

> using the law of the land to justify going against your personal conscience

I don't see it that way at all. Their personal consciences recoiled at providing support for a patent troll and they recoiled at imposing censorship based on the content of a client's messages. They had to reconcile these two opposing attacks of conscience.

Re: What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

#29
post #23

The content of the post was not at all what I expected. The funny thing about principles is they're easy to have when they're not being tested. For example: "'I really don’t want this guy’s money,' Tyler said at one point. We’re glad not to have it." That's a lot easier to say when the offer of money is no longer on the table. I'm not sure at what point that was actually said, but in the article it comes after giving…

To be clear, we tell customers all the time that they shouldn't use our software. Each customer is worth $10/month, so it's not worth having people on the system that don't belong. This wasn't about the money at all, it was about the precedent it would set. How do we convince our other users that they can trust us if we're arbitrarily booting users because we disagree with them.

Re: What we did when a patent troll asked for our help

#30
If it was me...

My ToS would have an ethics clause in it, that if it becomes known to us you are doing something I may find unscrupulous then me and my staff have a right to refuse to help you on a personal basis. I'd hate to make any of my people have to help someone they find unethical.

It is a hard question to answer though, but I think harder to answer after you are established, and therefore should be asked by every new startup that wasn't planning on having an ethics portion to their ToS.

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