Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 59 posts

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#21

Post by tptacek »

defrost wrote: post #20
tptacek wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the claim is that militant Israelis are using religious rhetoric to justify their actions, that seems uncontroversial (though the "Amalek" thing is a misquote, and refers not to Palestinians but to Hamas itself). If instead the idea is that the "rhetoric" of "rabbis" is somehow automatically dehumanizing to Palestinians, that seems like a problematic claim.

For my part I find the implication that the rhetoric of rabbis is homogenous and aligned to be most problematic. There are those that appear to fully back Netanyahu and his longstanding views on treatment of the Palestinian state, there are others who are loudly against the actions of the Israeli state in recent years. ( I'd remark that there are more than two extremes but feel this is not the right thread to comment…

Yes, that's what snagged me here too. If the idea is just that IDF soldiers are brutalizing Palestinians while shouting religious slogans, maybe "religious language" is the better term to use. It's a common phenomenon on war and doesn't have any connotations of Jewish people being somehow exceptional about this.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#22

Post by enterprise_cog »

tptacek wrote: post #19
enterprise_cog wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to let the IDF know then, cause they have taken the Amalek quote quite literally. “‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Once again: that quote refers to Hamas, not the Palestinian people. I am not disputing that it represents religious rhetoric used to justify IDF actions. I'm only pushing back on the notion that it refers broadly to Palestinians.

They have killed over 30k Palestinians. The settlers using that rhetoric are killing people in the West Bank.

It’s pretty clear it means the Palestinian people.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#23

Post by tptacek »

enterprise_cog wrote: post #22
tptacek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again: that quote refers to Hamas, not the Palestinian people. I am not disputing that it represents religious rhetoric used to justify IDF actions. I'm only pushing back on the notion that it refers broadly to Palestinians.

They have killed over 30k Palestinians. The settlers using that rhetoric are killing people in the West Bank. It’s pretty clear it means the Palestinian people.

Kahanist extremists have used the term to refer broadly to Palestinians in the same way Christian extremists have deployed Christian tropes to dehumanize, well, everybody in the world at one time or another. But the "Amalek" quote is famous because Netanyahu said it, and we have the context for the speech in which he did: he was referring specifically to Hamas.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#24

Post by enterprise_cog »

tptacek wrote: post #23
enterprise_cog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have killed over 30k Palestinians. The settlers using that rhetoric are killing people in the West Bank. It’s pretty clear it means the Palestinian people.

Kahanist extremists have used the term to refer broadly to Palestinians in the same way Christian extremists have deployed Christian tropes to dehumanize, well, everybody in the world at one time or another. But the "Amalek" quote is famous because Netanyahu said it, and we have the context for the speech in which he did: he was referring specifically to Hamas.

All the child and infant Hamas members. Yeah, right.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#25

Post by tptacek »

enterprise_cog wrote: post #24
tptacek wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kahanist extremists have used the term to refer broadly to Palestinians in the same way Christian extremists have deployed Christian tropes to dehumanize, well, everybody in the world at one time or another. But the "Amalek" quote is famous because Netanyahu said it, and we have the context for the speech in which he did: he was referring specifically to Hamas.

All the child and infant Hamas members. Yeah, right.

I don't know what you're trying to argue here. Nobody denies that an enormous number of civilians have been killed in the IDF's Gaza operation.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#26

Post by kasey_junk »

hypeit wrote: post #16
kasey_junk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don’t believe there was any sexual assault. There’s precedent for this type of armed resistance. The Haitian Slave Revolt and the Pueblo Revolt are both very similar. I think Oct 7th was justified, I don’t want to litigate it here though. This will be my last comment, I just want to state what a lot of people are thinking so it’s not misrepresented. I know many people here won’t agree.

[flagged]

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#27

Post by khokhol »

tptacek wrote: post #23
enterprise_cog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have killed over 30k Palestinians. The settlers using that rhetoric are killing people in the West Bank. It’s pretty clear it means the Palestinian people.

Kahanist extremists have used the term to refer broadly to Palestinians in the same way Christian extremists have deployed Christian tropes to dehumanize, well, everybody in the world at one time or another. But the "Amalek" quote is famous because Netanyahu said it, and we have the context for the speech in which he did: he was referring specifically to Hamas.

He was referring specifically to Hamas.

That's the spin that the PM's office came up in an attempt to cover its tracks after the massive stink cloud that was raised once the quote became known outside Israel.

But for naught. Because it's manifestly clear from the language of the quote (and its historical context) that it refers to the entire population, not just Hamas. And unfortunately backed now by the IDF's actions on the ground, the zillions of TikTok videos gleefully posted by its soldiers, the rantings and ravings of countless government officials and other public figures, etc.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#28

Post by khokhol »

tptacek wrote: post #25
enterprise_cog wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the child and infant Hamas members. Yeah, right.

I don't know what you're trying to argue here. Nobody denies that an enormous number of civilians have been killed in the IDF's Gaza operation.

I don't know what you're trying to argue here.

That you are attempting to wiggle away from the plainly obvious nature of the quote, for some reason.

Nobody denies that an enormous number of civilians have been killed in the IDF's Gaza operation.

Except of course numerous Israeli government officials. (They don't deny that many civilians have been killed -- but they have continually attempted to dial down the proportion of civilian casualties, along with all the rhetoric about there being "no innocents" or "no uninvolved civilians" in Gaza to begin with).

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#29

Post by tptacek »

khokhol wrote: post #27
tptacek wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kahanist extremists have used the term to refer broadly to Palestinians in the same way Christian extremists have deployed Christian tropes to dehumanize, well, everybody in the world at one time or another. But the "Amalek" quote is famous because Netanyahu said it, and we have the context for the speech in which he did: he was referring specifically to Hamas.

He was referring specifically to Hamas. That's the spin that the PM's office came up in an attempt to cover its tracks after the massive stink cloud that was raised once the quote became known outside Israel. But for naught. Because it's manifestly clear from the language of the quote (and its historical context) that it refers to the entire population, not just Hamas. And unfortunately backed now by the IDF's action…

No, it's not. There's a long analysis of this in The Atlantic, with the verbatim quote.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#30

Post by tptacek »

khokhol wrote: post #28
tptacek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you're trying to argue here. Nobody denies that an enormous number of civilians have been killed in the IDF's Gaza operation.

I don't know what you're trying to argue here. That you are attempting to wiggle away from the plainly obvious nature of the quote, for some reason. Nobody denies that an enormous number of civilians have been killed in the IDF's Gaza operation. Except of course numerous Israeli government officials. (They don't deny that many civilians have been killed -- but they have continually attempted to dial down the proporti…

In what way? You get that the Gaza offensive can be a long series of war crimes and unjustifiable civilian casualties and the quote can not mean what the parent comment said it meant, right? If you think the quote is an unimportant side detail, I think we can agree on that generally.

This is a thread about rhetoric, not a judgement of the whole conflict.

Post reply on HN