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California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

latimes.com

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Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#21

Post by jfengel »

thimp wrote: post #15
milliams wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where fun protests like https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-43559636 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWz_p445Oh0 help. I've noticed a more concerted effort by supermarkets to reduce plastic in their packaging (it's still a lot though) and to provide "soft plastic" recycling (at their expense).

I had a girlfriend who unpackaged a lot of stuff she bought at the checkout so she wouldn't have to deal with the trash. I thought it was insane for a bit but no it's quite reasonable actually when you think about it.

I've seen this in places where they charge by the bag for trash pickup. Stores have bins set up for exactly that purpose. (Not sure if that's required or if they volunteer it.)

I've seen it in Germany and Switzerland, but I have no idea how widespread it is.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#22

Post by dionidium »

dachworker wrote: post #14

I remember the brown paper bag being an iconic part of American movies, when I was growing up. What happened to that?

I can carry one of those in each arm or maybe three total bags, if I balance it right. With the plastic ones I can get just about the whole trunk-load wrapped around my wrists and up the stairs in one go.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#23

Post by xnorswap »

TexanFeller wrote: post #4

Bag bans are one of the most perfect examples of how American environmentalists focus on all the wrong things and miss the forrest for the trees. The plastic bag in the grocery store contains multiple products packaged in 100x more volume of plastic than the plastic bag. It also contains a bunch of single serving aluminum cans. Banning plastic bags moves the needle the least and greatly annoys customers. It would be…

Your argument is a popular contrarian take, but it doesn't seem to hold up to the evidence: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/31/governme...

If California has a problem it isn't because bag bans don't work, it's because they've screwed up their implementation.

And yes, supermarkets do still use a lot of unnecessary plastic in packaging, but that's another issue that can also be tackled, and I haven't seen evidence that it has actually got worse since the plastic bag levy.

Arguing that plastic bags shouldn't be tackled because something else could be done is an argument to do nothing.

Plastic carrier bags were an absolute scourge a decade ago, they were everywhere. Their use has been absolutely decimated.

The arguments that people are secretly using more because they're no longer re-using them as bin bags or because they're buying "bags for life" instead are bad faith arguments that just don't hold up to the statistics or the reality of the situation.

Over 7 billion less plastic bags produced per year in the UK. That's a tremendous achievement.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#24

Post by stetrain »

TexanFeller wrote: post #4

Bag bans are one of the most perfect examples of how American environmentalists focus on all the wrong things and miss the forrest for the trees. The plastic bag in the grocery store contains multiple products packaged in 100x more volume of plastic than the plastic bag. It also contains a bunch of single serving aluminum cans. Banning plastic bags moves the needle the least and greatly annoys customers. It would be…

Are single serving aluminum cans, if recycled, really worse than the alternatives? Plastic bottles or glass both have their own emissions and recycling issues.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#25

Post by jfengel »

dachworker wrote: post #14

I remember the brown paper bag being an iconic part of American movies, when I was growing up. What happened to that?

Here in Maryland they have returned. We got rid of the plastic bags and they brought in paper. I think grocery stores are required to charge ten cents.

(Not fast food restaurants, though some entrepreneurial or confused franchise managers did try for a while.)

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#26

Post by audunw »

TexanFeller wrote: post #4

Bag bans are one of the most perfect examples of how American environmentalists focus on all the wrong things and miss the forrest for the trees. The plastic bag in the grocery store contains multiple products packaged in 100x more volume of plastic than the plastic bag. It also contains a bunch of single serving aluminum cans. Banning plastic bags moves the needle the least and greatly annoys customers. It would be…

> It would be far better to promote banning of single serving aluminum cans

Uh, what? Aluminum cans are actually one of the things that can be easily recycled, and it's economic too. If anything should be done it is to mandate the introduction of bottle/can recycling machines like "Tomra" in the US.

> and plastic/styrofoam packaging for goods within the store.

That plastic packaging does actually serve a purpose which is not easy to solve in other ways though. People think plastic wrapped vegetables is stupid, but it helps keep the vegetables fresh for longer, which reduces waste.

There are organic compostable "plastic" films that should eventually be used instead. But it's work in progress.

Meanwhile, replacing a single use grocery bag for a reusable one is something that can be done instantly today.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#27

Post by jeffbee »

In my city I think they outlawed plastic bags altogether. I haven't seen one in ages. The grocery markets will give you a paper one for a dime but many people use their canvas or insulated shoulder bags. They're sort of a fashion statement. You're not really from Berkeley unless you carry your produce home in a bag with the logo of some place that closed in the 1990s.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#28

Post by gruez »

xnorswap wrote: post #23
TexanFeller wrote: post #4

Bag bans are one of the most perfect examples of how American environmentalists focus on all the wrong things and miss the forrest for the trees. The plastic bag in the grocery store contains multiple products packaged in 100x more volume of plastic than the plastic bag. It also contains a bunch of single serving aluminum cans. Banning plastic bags moves the needle the least and greatly annoys customers. It would be…

Your argument is a popular contrarian take, but it doesn't seem to hold up to the evidence: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/31/governme... If California has a problem it isn't because bag bans don't work, it's because they've screwed up their implementation. And yes, supermarkets do still use a lot of unnecessary plastic in packaging, but that's another issue that can also be tackled, and I haven't s…

The OP was talking about "bag bans". Your linked article talks about a "bag charge". Those are totally different things. Bag bans force forgetful people to buy "reusable" bags that take more plastic to produce, and inevitably pile up an need to be disposed of. Bag charges don't have that issue, because you can continue to buy thin bags, just at a steep markup.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#29

Post by nottorp »

Funny, I stopped getting free or paid plastic bags before it was un-cool and un-eco, just because I was tired of throwing away a plastic bag full of plastic bags regularly. I just keep 2-3 around and reuse them now.

Perhaps we're just going with the wrong incentives.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#30

Post by cfn »

flaminHotSpeedo wrote: post #19

This doesn't pass the sniff test for me... The article claims that plastic bag waste went from 4.08 tons to 5.89 tons per 1000 people from 2014 to 2022, then attributes that to the new heavier bags. I don't have good numbers but as a terrible estimate let's say an old single use bag was 5 grams and a newer one is 30 grams. If plastic bag weight really went up almost 50% per capita, using that assumption that an indiv…

We introduced similar laws here in Portugal last year and my anedoctal observation is that most people buy the thicker bags at 10-20 cents. It is also very obvious that many items that used to be sold loose are now packaged or bring their own plastic or paper bag. I'm looking forward to the statistics next year.

EDIT: It is not clear above, I mean that most people don't reuse the bags, they just buy new ones each time.

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