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Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

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Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#21

Post by fifteen1506 »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #17
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disingenuous to not explain the connection between these organizations. You're making it sound like they both happen to be named "Mozilla", when the reality is much more nuanced and interdependent, but in terms of their current funding and leadership, as well as their history.

No, it's not. Having worked at the foundation for a decade: to the vast majority of folks, the difference that matters is that "one makes Firefox, the other does campaigning/advocacy/outreach". The history behind why there are two different entities is fascinating, but also doesn't change the fact that they are two completely different companies with completely different org charts and completely different focuses, u…

Which one fired most Rust developers?

The foundation or the corporation?

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#22

Post by wheybags »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #17
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disingenuous to not explain the connection between these organizations. You're making it sound like they both happen to be named "Mozilla", when the reality is much more nuanced and interdependent, but in terms of their current funding and leadership, as well as their history.

No, it's not. Having worked at the foundation for a decade: to the vast majority of folks, the difference that matters is that "one makes Firefox, the other does campaigning/advocacy/outreach". The history behind why there are two different entities is fascinating, but also doesn't change the fact that they are two completely different companies with completely different org charts and completely different focuses, u…

I'm aware and I hate it. I have zero interest in most of the crap the foundation gets up to, but I keep sending them money because it's the only way to "support Firefox". I want to support Firefox but I resent every cent I send them because I know they're wasting it on irrelevant crap.

I would really love to see a mass resignation of Firefox engineers, who then set up a new nonprofit + ff fork, and I could just switch my attention and my donations over there.

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#23

Post by andrewstuart »

I put it to you that the web browser and the operating system are the two most sophisticated applications ever built.

No doubt it’s possible to build a simple web browser that gets some 50% of the job done and could serviceabley display some websites.

However there would a very very long tail of detail and nuance and edge cases that would be very very hard to catch up.

This is why you should use Firefox and we should never lose Firefox.

If you don’t follow it closely, the pace of new feature development in web browsers is stunning. There is a huge amount of new stuff going in constantly.

I’m not knocking this project….. developers can build whatever they like. I’m just observing that the web browser is already the Pyramids of Giza or some other such gigantic human endeavor.

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#25

Post by TheRealPomax »

fifteen1506 wrote: post #21
TheRealPomax wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. Having worked at the foundation for a decade: to the vast majority of folks, the difference that matters is that "one makes Firefox, the other does campaigning/advocacy/outreach". The history behind why there are two different entities is fascinating, but also doesn't change the fact that they are two completely different companies with completely different org charts and completely different focuses, u…

Which one fired most Rust developers? The foundation or the corporation?

Corp. The Foundation doesn't make products.

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#27

Post by andrewstuart »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #13
ofrzeta wrote: post #3

Related (chat with Andreas Kling about SerenityOS and Ladybird): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36620450 However I don't understand why many people are longing for Ladybird as another free browser. There are already some and Firefox is losing marketshare every day. So please do use it. Ok, I guess Mozilla Foundation's running the Firefox project is not to everyones liking, so that would be a valid reason. But n…

I think it's more excitement about the idea that it is possible to write a web browser from scratch, than about this specific browser. This is just one of the most promising implementations of that idea. I am very much team Firefox and think it is important to protect and promote it as much as possible. But I don't think the attention that people are giving to Ladybird would otherwise be dedicated to Firefox. Maybe w…

>> I think it's more excitement about the idea that it is possible to write a web browser from scratch

Depends on your definition of “a web browser”.

It’s not possible to clone Firefox or Chrome without huge huge resources and time and effort.

It is probably possible to make something like a web browser from 20 years ago.

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#28

Post by TheRealPomax »

wheybags wrote: post #22
TheRealPomax wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. Having worked at the foundation for a decade: to the vast majority of folks, the difference that matters is that "one makes Firefox, the other does campaigning/advocacy/outreach". The history behind why there are two different entities is fascinating, but also doesn't change the fact that they are two completely different companies with completely different org charts and completely different focuses, u…

I'm aware and I hate it. I have zero interest in most of the crap the foundation gets up to, but I keep sending them money because it's the only way to "support Firefox". I want to support Firefox but I resent every cent I send them because I know they're wasting it on irrelevant crap. I would really love to see a mass resignation of Firefox engineers, who then set up a new nonprofit + ff fork, and I could just switc…

You can't fight for an open web just by making a browser. As dire as the Firefox market share is today, it'd be so much worse if the Foundation didn't spend its time and effort making sure the folks who don't give a shit, but should (e.g. politicians, law makers, lobbyists, news outlets, etc. etc.) learn why they should give a shit about the open web.

It sucks that you can't donate to Firefox directly, but calling what the foundation does "irrelevant" feels like you're not looking at the very real big picture of everyone wanting to lock down the web, all the time, everywhere.

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#29

Post by [deleted] »

fifteen1506 wrote: post #21
TheRealPomax wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. Having worked at the foundation for a decade: to the vast majority of folks, the difference that matters is that "one makes Firefox, the other does campaigning/advocacy/outreach". The history behind why there are two different entities is fascinating, but also doesn't change the fact that they are two completely different companies with completely different org charts and completely different focuses, u…

Which one fired most Rust developers? The foundation or the corporation?

[deleted]

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#30

Post by robador »

> As an example, the recently launched website for Dialogic requires about 700 JavaScript-modules, and has about 19.000 lines of code of its own. There is however a staggering amount of complexity hiding beneath: just this website alone depends on (potentially) another 1.3 million (!) lines of code in modules it uses.

This is fine.

Seriously though, that's insane.

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