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28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

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Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#22

More renewable is good.. but there is always one fear in my crazy mind about these: This isn't actually renewable but taking energy out of a huge reservoir (Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system).. and if we'd scale it massively the result could be another catastrophe. (Same btw. with geothermal?). (Btw.. I maybe got tidal wrong, so if it is just taking energy f…

the tidal systems are insanely vast and powerful. the gravitational pull of the moon and the sun is so large that even if you deploy a massive amount of kits on a small surface, you're unlikely to have an impact on the tides. theoretically it's possible, but it'd require an implausible scale of deployment

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#23

More renewable is good.. but there is always one fear in my crazy mind about these: This isn't actually renewable but taking energy out of a huge reservoir (Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system).. and if we'd scale it massively the result could be another catastrophe. (Same btw. with geothermal?). (Btw.. I maybe got tidal wrong, so if it is just taking energy f…

Tidal energy comes from the moon (and the sun) pulling the oceans as the Earth spins. Extracting energy from this effectively increases the drag between the ocean and the land, which slows down the rotation of the Earth. This effect even occurs without extracting tidal energy, and some of the dinosaurs (IIRC) had 19 hour days.

The amount of energy in the rotation of the Earth is so huge that this basically doesn't matter, 10 TW for 660 million years, which is into the realm of "will too much carbon be subducted for photosynthesis to continue?" timescales.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#25

More renewable is good.. but there is always one fear in my crazy mind about these: This isn't actually renewable but taking energy out of a huge reservoir (Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system).. and if we'd scale it massively the result could be another catastrophe. (Same btw. with geothermal?). (Btw.. I maybe got tidal wrong, so if it is just taking energy f…

You're edging on the laws of thermodynamics there: on a long enough time scale all energy is non-renewable, every little bit of consumption gets you that much closer to the heat death of the universe. But given the vast reserve in that system for once humans won't be able to meaningfully affect it unless we start consuming far more than we do today. Interesting aside: that momentum is a giant energy reserve and conceivably you could rob some of it to create a means of escaping the gravity well even if there had not been any other.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#26

More renewable is good.. but there is always one fear in my crazy mind about these: This isn't actually renewable but taking energy out of a huge reservoir (Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system).. and if we'd scale it massively the result could be another catastrophe. (Same btw. with geothermal?). (Btw.. I maybe got tidal wrong, so if it is just taking energy f…

Some numbers here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power#Principle (last paragraph). Tidal energy is wasted by natural coastlines all the time, being converted into heat and erosion. If this effect is constant, it looks like the day gets longer by 7 minutes 12 seconds every 36.5 million years. (I calculated that because it's a 1% reduction in rotational energy.) Human extraction of tidal energy is much smaller than the energy wasted by tides acting on all the world's coastlines, I assume. To some extent it takes energy away from coastal erosion, which also seems fairly benign.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#27
post #8
post #3

Definitely seems more feasible than a lot of crazy energy ideas! E.g. I think this makes more sense than the air versions because you don't have problems launching/landing or when the wind stops. Probably the biggest issues I could imagine are maintenance and wildlife. They might be minor issues though. Also in most of the world (maybe not the Faroe Islands) this has to compete with solar & batteries which are gettin…

> Probably the biggest issues I could imagine are maintenance and wildlife. They might be minor issues though. Might, yes, but I think it’s unlikely all problems will be minor. Salt water isn’t kind to metal, no matter how well painted. Also, I expect barnacles will start growing on it. If you’re a filter feeder, this may be even better than sitting on the sea bed or on a whale. Question will be how much that effects…

Maybe we don't even care if barnacles grow on it since it's kind of a water catcher anyway.

Or if not this design, maybe one could be designed to either not care or even benefit from barnacles.

Remove the whole problem of fighting it.

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#28

More renewable is good.. but there is always one fear in my crazy mind about these: This isn't actually renewable but taking energy out of a huge reservoir (Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system).. and if we'd scale it massively the result could be another catastrophe. (Same btw. with geothermal?). (Btw.. I maybe got tidal wrong, so if it is just taking energy f…

It's good that you are aware it's a crazy thought :) Nothing wrong with looking into it though. Wikipedia offers:

> Movement of tides causes a loss of mechanical energy in the Earth-Moon system: this results from pumping of water through natural restrictions around coastlines and consequent viscous dissipation at the seabed and in turbulence. This loss of energy has caused the rotation of the Earth to slow in the 4.5 billion years since its formation. During the last 620 million years the period of rotation of the Earth (length of a day) has increased from 21.9 hours to 24 hours;[10] in this period the Earth-Moon system has lost 17% of its rotational energy. While tidal power will take additional energy from the system, the effect is negligible and would not be noticeable in the foreseeable future.

and there is some simple math in the [Tidal acceleration] page [0] that you may want to read. Basically, the tides slow the rotation of the Earth, with some of the energy being transferred to the Moon but most of it going into friction. The natural friction is estimated at a (surprisingly low, IMO) 3.64 TW, and at this rate the Earth will stop rotating in 50 billion years, long after the Sun has blown up.

So if we want to keep the Earth spinning (albeit slowly) until the Sun goes red giant, we can afford to cut that time down to a tenth, meaning we can produce 36 TW (before conversion to electricity, i.e. ignoring efficiency).

If we are being reckless and just want to use power until we figure out nuclear fusion or something better, let's say a million years or so, we can make some 180 PW from tides. But since it would almost all turn to heat, and since that is more energy than the Earth gets from the Sun, that would probably be unwise unless we find a way to get it off-planet with very high efficiency.

(Global electrical energy production is currectly about 28 PWh per year, equivalent to a constant 3TW or so.)

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_acceleration

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#29

More renewable is good.. but there is always one fear in my crazy mind about these: This isn't actually renewable but taking energy out of a huge reservoir (Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system).. and if we'd scale it massively the result could be another catastrophe. (Same btw. with geothermal?). (Btw.. I maybe got tidal wrong, so if it is just taking energy f…

"Tidal Energy Is Not Renewable": https://cs.stanford.edu/people/zjl/pdf/tide.pdf

Previous discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37383283

Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid

#30

More renewable is good.. but there is always one fear in my crazy mind about these: This isn't actually renewable but taking energy out of a huge reservoir (Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system).. and if we'd scale it massively the result could be another catastrophe. (Same btw. with geothermal?). (Btw.. I maybe got tidal wrong, so if it is just taking energy f…

> Same for solar if pea counting, but solar is really endless until the end of the solar system

Imagine you wrap the Earth inside a sphere of perfectly efficient solar panels, that would be energetically troublesome! Every bit of solar panel we lay removes a bit of that overall energy flux; the question is then how much can we afford without detrimental impact.

Essentially we dampen tides with these devices. Windmills are slowing the wind. How much can we afford before it has an actual detrimental effect?

Also, pedantically, "renewable" is a fun word.

The question of "renewable" is whether the energy/matter somehow gets back in some way... Of course there's entropy and such.

Say you cut wood (CHO) and burn it. If you grow enough wood it'd recapture H2O+CO2 and you have a nice endless loop (plus entropy). That would presumably be renewable.

In that sense (again, pedantically):

- nuclear (and so the sun) is not renewable: reversing U/Pu/whatever fission is a teeny bit out of our league so someday the supply will dry out. Fusion as we do it (and the sun too, being main sequence) is H->He and we don't exactly know how we could reverse that so someday the supply will dry out.

- fossil fuel is renewable... on a geological timescale, which is not really practical; we can't exactly grow big enough forests and bury them for millions of years to get fuel back. So someday the supply of humans surviving will dry out.

- tides/wind is not renewable: we get mechanical energy but don't return it to the original place (or maybe extremely indirectly in the form of heat)

So it's all named backwards!

Or really there's no renewable... Essentially it all pans out because the Earth is not a closed system, there's loss in every transformation but it's balanced by the energy influx from our nearby star.

So I guess the "renewable" thing is not really, it's more like "capturing energy from an astoundingly immense and complex system in a way that doesn't throw it in a runaway catastrophe one way or another before the sun exits its main sequence".

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