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The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

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Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#21

Post by economicalidea »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #13
forgetfreeman wrote: post #7

It's thinkpieces like this that make me believe that IT professionals specifically and white collar workers generally would benefit greatly from a mandatory 24 month stint on a construction crew. One of the most important lessons any job foreman can learn is that every crew needs at least one lame duck. A single talented carpenter with an energetic but otherwise totally unskilled helper can accomplish more in a shift…

Hold on! The construction analogy doesn’t apply because in a lot of code bases, probably most there are very few menial tasks. Some code bases need IQ 120 + to do anything non trivial in and maybe even higher. So there are menial tasks, but menial like “yeah just redraft this architectural drawing for me mate, to take account of the new 2021 fire regs, I got actual brainy stuff to get on with”. Pairing senior and jun…

I disagree with your point that this analogy does not apply.

You say there are some codebases that need over 9000 IQ to do anything. While that might be true, it is not the norm and a small fraction, so it’s not relevant to the broader argument.

You say it’s completely different in programming. Sure it doesn’t help if one of your workers is a complete idiot — but that was not the premise - it was unskilled but energetic.

And there are always menial tasks to do — you pointed out some example yourself.

So to sum up my points are: - most codebases do not require gigabrain for every single change

- there are always menial tasks to be done in a team environment

- “untalented” people don’t necessarily slow things down in development

- in fact talent is irrelevant when writing code - I would even argue that being talented is not always an advantage, in any field or profession - but that last point probably would need some more explanation.

Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#22

Post by economicalidea »

082349872349872 wrote: post #18
quickthrower2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hold on! The construction analogy doesn’t apply because in a lot of code bases, probably most there are very few menial tasks. Some code bases need IQ 120 + to do anything non trivial in and maybe even higher. So there are menial tasks, but menial like “yeah just redraft this architectural drawing for me mate, to take account of the new 2021 fire regs, I got actual brainy stuff to get on with”. Pairing senior and jun…

To be specific on the garden leave: "[run to the truck] for some nails" is easy to formulate yet takes effort to do. The majority of the effort for most coding tasks is the formulation, and by the time you've explained to the lame duck how to do what needs to be done, and checked that they actually did it, it would've been easier to have done it yourself. (were one to have suitable lame duck tasks, how would wetware…

This is where working at an actual construction site would be a good experience for you — or any developer really.

Run to the truck and get nails also requires explanation/experience to get right if you have never done it before — what nails?which truck?how many?etc.

It is completely the same thing. The first time around you might have to explain the menial tasks in detail - btw a good exercise anyway, since you need to be able to explain aka understand the task anyway, after all you need to review later. And the first time around there will be some mistakes or misunderstandings.

But it gets better over time. With everyone.

Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#23

Post by ildjarn »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #7

It's thinkpieces like this that make me believe that IT professionals specifically and white collar workers generally would benefit greatly from a mandatory 24 month stint on a construction crew. One of the most important lessons any job foreman can learn is that every crew needs at least one lame duck. A single talented carpenter with an energetic but otherwise totally unskilled helper can accomplish more in a shift…

Given that software has reuse and abstractions, we should all be embarrassed that there are any menial tasks at all.

Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#24

Post by lostlogin »

ildjarn wrote: post #23
forgetfreeman wrote: post #7

It's thinkpieces like this that make me believe that IT professionals specifically and white collar workers generally would benefit greatly from a mandatory 24 month stint on a construction crew. One of the most important lessons any job foreman can learn is that every crew needs at least one lame duck. A single talented carpenter with an energetic but otherwise totally unskilled helper can accomplish more in a shift…

Given that software has reuse and abstractions, we should all be embarrassed that there are any menial tasks at all.

A short stint on a Helpdesk will remove any illusion that menial tasks will ever be solved by machines.

The users are actually amazing and seeing what happens is awe inspiring - in a bad way.

Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#25

Post by jiggawatts »

RajT88 wrote: post #3

After college, I lived with a friend who worked in the IT department at our college. He got called in on a Sunday once, and came back around lunchtime quite flustered. "What's wrong?" "Sam asked me what a traceroute was." Sam was the longtime Novell admin. Yes this was a while ago... "The worst part was, I patiently explained it to him, and he just asked me why that was useful?" Just one example. There was more, of p…

Novell primarily used IPX and gained support for TCP/IP very late, and then that still wasn't widely used even around 2003-5. Many networks used both: IPX for Novell, and TCP/IP for everything else.

Novell NetWare was most commonly used on a single, flat network with no routers or firewalls. The networks of the era were smaller, and the setup and routing of IPX is more automatic and simpler than IP. It didn't scale "up to the Internet", but it also needed less configuration and troubleshooting.

Notably, the "tracert" tool is specifically for IP, not IPX!

That's why Sam's Novell-expert friend hadn't used it and wasn't familiar with it.

It's like being surprised that someone that had used NoSQL for their entire career wasn't familiar with 3rd normal form and relational algebra.

Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#26

Post by 082349872349872 »

economicalidea wrote: post #22
082349872349872 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be specific on the garden leave: "[run to the truck] for some nails" is easy to formulate yet takes effort to do. The majority of the effort for most coding tasks is the formulation, and by the time you've explained to the lame duck how to do what needs to be done, and checked that they actually did it, it would've been easier to have done it yourself. (were one to have suitable lame duck tasks, how would wetware…

This is where working at an actual construction site would be a good experience for you — or any developer really. Run to the truck and get nails also requires explanation/experience to get right if you have never done it before — what nails?which truck?how many?etc. It is completely the same thing. The first time around you might have to explain the menial tasks in detail - btw a good exercise anyway, since you need…

You've just described a "junior"; I had mistakenly thought your "lame duck" was referring to the "salt" in TFA, who, on a useful timescale, do not get better.

Remember, for us the machine already plays the gofer role: handling menial tasks.

Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#27

Post by roenxi »

jiggawatts wrote: post #25
RajT88 wrote: post #3

After college, I lived with a friend who worked in the IT department at our college. He got called in on a Sunday once, and came back around lunchtime quite flustered. "What's wrong?" "Sam asked me what a traceroute was." Sam was the longtime Novell admin. Yes this was a while ago... "The worst part was, I patiently explained it to him, and he just asked me why that was useful?" Just one example. There was more, of p…

Novell primarily used IPX and gained support for TCP/IP very late, and then that still wasn't widely used even around 2003-5. Many networks used both: IPX for Novell, and TCP/IP for everything else. Novell NetWare was most commonly used on a single, flat network with no routers or firewalls. The networks of the era were smaller, and the setup and routing of IPX is more automatic and simpler than IP. It didn't scale "…

One of the humorous tells of a novice is they haven't yet had to deal with all their tool knowledge being obsoleted and haven't had to understand that competent people might not know said novice's favoured tools.

The amount of random trivia in tech is a vast ocean. Nobody knows all of it. Specific cultures swim in specific waters, but out of habit more than anything else.

Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#28

Post by boffinAudio »

I'm a 'technician' in a company full of 'scientists', and I can say without question, the scientists need help, the technicians need knowledge, and neither of the two realms can really survive without the other.

Sometimes you need the guy who has burned his fingers repairing things, over and over, to review your design - he's going to tell you why you are going to burn your fingers. Other times, the guy doing things in a semi-glib fashion, needs to be pulled off the production line and enlightened as to why things have to be done a certain way.

To consider this relationship hierarchical is to weaponise the subject - instead, these are key relationships. A single great scientist with 2 or 3 good technicians can build amazing products.

3 scientists with no technician, rarely ever do .. but there is of course the odd exception where a technician, by making something really great, becomes a scientist, too - and scientists, without technicians and therefore having to get their fingers toasty, often make amazing technicians. (This is why the hierarchical subjugation of the subject must be resisted.)

Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#29

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #13
forgetfreeman wrote: post #7

It's thinkpieces like this that make me believe that IT professionals specifically and white collar workers generally would benefit greatly from a mandatory 24 month stint on a construction crew. One of the most important lessons any job foreman can learn is that every crew needs at least one lame duck. A single talented carpenter with an energetic but otherwise totally unskilled helper can accomplish more in a shift…

Hold on! The construction analogy doesn’t apply because in a lot of code bases, probably most there are very few menial tasks. Some code bases need IQ 120 + to do anything non trivial in and maybe even higher. So there are menial tasks, but menial like “yeah just redraft this architectural drawing for me mate, to take account of the new 2021 fire regs, I got actual brainy stuff to get on with”. Pairing senior and jun…

> Some code bases need IQ 120 + to do anything non trivial in and maybe even higher.

And in the majority of cases, I would say that this is "accidental complexity" - i.e. it can and should be otherwise, and calling out the unnecessary cognitive load, is a benefit.

Re: The Wetware Crisis: The Dead Sea Effect (2008)

#30

Post by throwawayqqq11 »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #13
forgetfreeman wrote: post #7

It's thinkpieces like this that make me believe that IT professionals specifically and white collar workers generally would benefit greatly from a mandatory 24 month stint on a construction crew. One of the most important lessons any job foreman can learn is that every crew needs at least one lame duck. A single talented carpenter with an energetic but otherwise totally unskilled helper can accomplish more in a shift…

Hold on! The construction analogy doesn’t apply because in a lot of code bases, probably most there are very few menial tasks. Some code bases need IQ 120 + to do anything non trivial in and maybe even higher. So there are menial tasks, but menial like “yeah just redraft this architectural drawing for me mate, to take account of the new 2021 fire regs, I got actual brainy stuff to get on with”. Pairing senior and jun…

> Pairing senior and junior devs works. But not because the junior is an idiot, but because they have stuff to learn.

I agree so much. The "dead sea effect" or whatever is just a lack of knowledge transfer. This problem remains over time too, eg look at the use of Cobol in the banking sector. Newer talents dont tend to learn old stuff. So what else is left for management to do in the long term than document really good and train newbies. If you think "migration", consider the timing, when the lack of knowledge already becomes pressing.

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