Live data from Hacker News

Want good programmers? Then pay them.

irrlicht3d.org

21–30 of 493 posts

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#21

I'd be very happy to make 2200€. I'm in France, and I'm paid barely above minimum wage. Granted, I don't have a very high level of college education, but even so, I made more when I had a job in a factory a few years ago. And the job market here doesn't seem to be that competitive, unfortunately.

If you're willing to move, come to Sweden. Stockholm is screaming for IT talent, we're open to immigration and the pay for someone with a few years of developer experience is quite a bit beyond that.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#22
post #7

Wake up, people: Are you serious? You want highly specialized people with actual skills, and expect them to be OK with that comparable low payment? If the same person sits down and starts creating his own software, he will probably earn much more one year later by himself already. Probably not. Most programmers don't have any idea what software sells and how to sell it.

Actually since I am freelancing, I have doubled my revenue. There are interesting job offers, for projects I would love to be part of, as a lone freelancer cannot easily tackle big projects, but the pay is really to low compared to what I can earn independently.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#23
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just ask people what they need and make it for them and they pay you. It's called freelancing. Almost no selling and absolutely no market research involved.

Even freelancing isn't straightforward. It's much more difficult to independently find a good stream of customers and well paying projects than it is to get a job or a contract.

How do you go about it, may I ask? I am close to exhausting my network and not seeing a breakthrough stream.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#24
Remember the USA has had 50 years of Silicon Valley. The rest of the world is playing catchup. While developers may understand the what creates a successful software product/company, the businesses adopting software development have no idea what they are doing.

There isn't the 50 years of collective physique at play. They haven't seen software giants rise and fall. And they haven't been exposed to the inputs that create a successful software company. As time goes on things will improve.

Just avoid these companies like the plague.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#25
post #9
post #7

Wake up, people: Are you serious? You want highly specialized people with actual skills, and expect them to be OK with that comparable low payment? If the same person sits down and starts creating his own software, he will probably earn much more one year later by himself already. Probably not. Most programmers don't have any idea what software sells and how to sell it.

You just ask people what they need and make it for them and they pay you. It's called freelancing. Almost no selling and absolutely no market research involved.

Isn't it "market research" to find those people and ask what they need? Isn't it "selling" to convince them that building this thing will be worth paying your freelancer's rate?

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#26
There are two sides behind this story. In small, not very competitive markets, like the one in Austria, companies are not expecting the programmers they hire to be great; not being very bad would be enough. All they will be asked to do is to support the legacy accounting system -- what's the point of hiring a ninja for that? This, combined with the typical CFO mentality ("That's all the budget I can allocate and I don't care about the position not being filled because it's the IT director who will be affected by that, not me. Frankly, I don't even think that accounting system needs rewriting. When's the lunch?") drives the offer side down.

On the other side, as an "entry level programmer", are you absolutely sure you worth more than 2200 EUR? Care to prove it to a Google recruiter, speaking in your native language just across the border, in Munich? Care to prove to the free market that you can run your own business and earn more? Great. That's what we have free markets for.

EDIT: Just want to add that I'm all for "pay well to hire great developers" approach, but I think this advice mostly applies to companies operating in highly competitive environments: think London startups competing with the salaries paid in the City, or startups in SV trying to lure people away from Facebook. Apart from that, your average employer don't care about what you think you worth and probably doing it for the right reason.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#27
post #3

I am a Vienna-based programmer and am looking at job adverts regularly. I fully agree with what you have written, sometimes I feel they mus be joking. There is no appreciation for hackers and what they are worth. Take this advert for example: http://derstandard.at/anzeiger/derjob/d/155533/c-senior-soft... 5 years experience in C++ and only 2,500 EUR gross? Seriously?

You are right. But about that advert: Most people don't see that that's the minimum payment as demanded by the state. They actually pay more (and funnily, in that case, I know that company and they pay quite well and know to honor the skills of their developers). Kind of sad that recruiters in Austria haven't yet noticed that everybody thinks the minimum payment is not what people are interested in reading on there a…

Really I didnt know that. I always thought they are crazy. But then I am a free lancer so I don't go interview.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#28
Sometimes small and medium businesses simply don't have the money to pay the big bucks that we think we are worth.

I've worked with a number of companies turning over in the low £millions, and it's very rare that the founder is taking lots of money off the table whilst low balling the staff on salaries.

These businesses simply don't have the margins and the runways to let salaries get out of hand.

As most of the economy is made up of these kinds of businesses, many of which have IT as the cost centre providing some non-remarkable CRUD development, this is probably a big factor that holds down average salaries.

Turn it around a little and image you are the small-medium sized business owner. You need a person, but can can only sensibly offer a salary of 75% of the market rate.

Are you best just not to offer the job for fear of exploiting someone or looking like a cheapskate, or do you put it out there and hope to find someone who is happy to work for that price?

[I'm a developer who agrees with the OP so I'm playing devils advocate slightly, but there are two sides to this.]

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#29
On occasion I have long complicated discussions with companies about how hard it to find developers. Assuming they're actually asking for a sane skill-set the problem is usually down to two factors:

1) Not paying enough

2) Not doing interesting work

(with the very occasional 3 of "having a bloody awful reputation")

The trick is, of course, finding a non-blunt way of getting this across :-)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#30
post #19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be a correlation, but it takes a lot more than good pay to foster an enjoyable company.

It's more of an indicator of negatives rather than positives; A company that pays comparatively shit (€2200/month comes out to about $35000, seriously!?) will probably not be a place that respects developers and attracts talent.

That's what the blog post already conveys :)
Post reply on HN