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I also hacked my car

goncalomb.com

21–30 of 93 posts

Re: I also hacked my car

#21
post #8

Awesome post! When will we be able to operate our car without it spying on us? Will we eventually be able to turn off the "phoning home" function/part?

The hard part about this nobody is willing to experiment with their $30k+ vehicle and risk bricking it. If you want a car that doesn’t spy on you you’re gonna have to look back a decade or so.

> their $30k+ vehicle and risk bricking it. If you want a car that doesn’t spy on you

Reminder that those who bought it, voted for it.

In economics, wallet is voting power - what you buy you feed and endorse.

Re: I also hacked my car

#23
post #8

Awesome post! When will we be able to operate our car without it spying on us? Will we eventually be able to turn off the "phoning home" function/part?

The hard part about this nobody is willing to experiment with their $30k+ vehicle and risk bricking it. If you want a car that doesn’t spy on you you’re gonna have to look back a decade or so.

If you'd like to experiment with bricking the head unit on your new car you can shop around and find a totaled specimen.

If all you need is a working head unit you should be able to get that for It's still an investment, but nowhere near $30k.

The real reason nobody bothers with this is that it's just the infotainment, and if you really want a custom one you can just buy a new head unit, or glue a tablet where the existing one resides.

You won't get access to the engage electronics, emissions controls etc. Those are all other dedicated computers.

Re: I also hacked my car

#25
post #21
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part about this nobody is willing to experiment with their $30k+ vehicle and risk bricking it. If you want a car that doesn’t spy on you you’re gonna have to look back a decade or so.

> their $30k+ vehicle and risk bricking it. If you want a car that doesn’t spy on you Reminder that those who bought it, voted for it. In economics, wallet is voting power - what you buy you feed and endorse.

> Reminder that those who bought it, voted for it.

I truly loathe this argument. I've seen it for cars, seen it for laptops, seen it for mobile devices. For years. People like you really think not purchasing the bad will fix stuff like this?

Purchasing decisions let you pick between competitors. That is all. You can't pick the open-source car that does not exist, unless you want to start your own car company just to build one. If you don't buy any car at all, then you simply don't exist to them, and they don't care about you.

Nobody is going to quit locking down their software just because a rounding error doesn't like it that way. They don't do it because they need people's votes, they do it because the company simply wants the software locked down, they don't care what customers think about it. Even if nobody bought the car, and everybody told them directly to offer open access, they'd probably still refuse to provide it, until and unless something like a regulation is passed that mandates it.

Cars aren't spying on you because people are voting for the spying. Nobody who buys the car is voting for it to spy on them, unless I guess their hypothetical dystopian future insurance gives them a bonus/discount for allowing them to view the data from the vehicle and they're actually okay with that.

Just look, you have a limited number of choices. You can "vote" for anything that is currently on the market. That is all the choice you have. If you want a car from the current market, you're going to have to pick one to vote for. Odds are they're all going to have some sort of surveillance-state bullshit, or the ones that don't have it are just going to be less-nice vehicles in general.

Similar to how, before Framework, everyone concerned about open-source system firmware was most likely rocking a speedy 2004 ThinkPad with a couple gigabytes of RAM. They were unable to simply vote for an actually fast, modern machine, as all of them had proprietary blobs doing who-knows-what. So someone had to come out and actually build one, and now we have Framework.

I believe that for phones, we might have Purism sometime in the 2030s, once they work out the most basic issues with their software stack, probably caused by trying to use existing Linux userland.

For cars... I haven't heard anything yet. Nobody's come out and built an open-source car company yet. So we're currently in the phase where you simply can't vote for an open-source car. Now, do you still need a car anyway? Then I guess you vote in favor of a locked-down vehicle. Even if you're not actually trying to vote, and you just need a car right now.

So that's why I hate this argument. Just because you bought a car doesn't mean you should be on the hook for "voting" for every feature the car has. You voted for the car. Doesn't mean it's perfect.

Re: I also hacked my car

#26
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember to remove the TPMS sensors from your wheels. They broadcast unique identifiers wherever you drive.

That does not seem to be too different from having a visible, readable ID plate - the information spread is "individual at that reader at that time" (though yes, if unneeded it should not be there). The issue is with more with recordings and with the principle of sending data around beyond the ID - and especially with the contract that would make such activity accepted.

Most people know a camera when they see it. Most won't recognize a small radio collection device on the side of the road.

Re: I also hacked my car

#27
Interesting read! I got a Toyota bus and the infotainment system sucks. As someone else wrote here, Bluetooth support is deadly slow and as soon as you stop the car the system will also shut down. It’s like someone created this system without considering real life scenarios, like being on a phone call, listening to a podcast or just listening to music.

But since you can also interact with the car, like turning on and off drive assistant systems, I would not dare to hack my car. How about insurance, when there is an accident?

Re: I also hacked my car

#28

Interesting read! I got a Toyota bus and the infotainment system sucks. As someone else wrote here, Bluetooth support is deadly slow and as soon as you stop the car the system will also shut down. It’s like someone created this system without considering real life scenarios, like being on a phone call, listening to a podcast or just listening to music. But since you can also interact with the car, like turning on and…

>> How about insurance, when there is an accident?

The insurance company would need to demonstrate that you've had an accident because of your modification. Just them being present doesn't invalidate anything.

However, in the real world, you can bet that they would try - you'd probably win in the court of law, but it's a risk.

Re: I also hacked my car

#29
post #24

And then you move the car to the maker for a simple maintenance task and, surprise bill.

If I'm hacking something I own, it's also highly likely that I am capable of fixing it and doing any needed maintenance. Part of the hacker mindset is not letting the fear of voiding a warranty stop you from truly owning the product you paid for.

Re: I also hacked my car

#30

Interesting read! I got a Toyota bus and the infotainment system sucks. As someone else wrote here, Bluetooth support is deadly slow and as soon as you stop the car the system will also shut down. It’s like someone created this system without considering real life scenarios, like being on a phone call, listening to a podcast or just listening to music. But since you can also interact with the car, like turning on and…

>> How about insurance, when there is an accident? The insurance company would need to demonstrate that you've had an accident because of your modification. Just them being present doesn't invalidate anything. However, in the real world, you can bet that they would try - you'd probably win in the court of law, but it's a risk.

Do you really think any insurance "expert" would look for that?

From my experience unless the car has some kind of self driving stuff they just check with a mechanic the state of the car to see if it is totalled or can be repaired. Unless there are wires going out of the car there is no reason they would even check the os of the dashboard console[1]

[1] I refuse to use infotainment word, it is so unappropriate.

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