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Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

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Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#21

Post by tintor »

sandworm101 wrote: post #11
tw04 wrote: post #6

This is essentially about letting Space-X in on more military missions that today they can only pass through Boeing and co. Presumably Space-X wasn't willing to take an entire chunk of staff and dedicate them to military-only missions and/or had staff that couldn't even pass the stringent security clearance requirements. The US government still wants to utilize them for missions, especially with starship and its payl…

I think this is above anything spacex would need to be told about. Spacex is the delivery driver. They need to know where the sat is going, how much it weighs, and a bit about its needs. They dont need to know what the sat is actually doing, let alone how that function ties into any larger programs.

But they need to know if sat is hazardous and/or radioactive, or what risks it posses to their vehicle.

Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#22

Post by FuriouslyAdrift »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #17
igleria wrote: post #15

> The policy does not mean that these programs and technologies will now be fully unclassified and revealed to the public; instead, it will lower their classification levels in order to share some technologies and programs with private industry and international allies to help the U.S. build an "asymmetric advantage and force multiplier that neither China nor Russia could ever hope to match," Plumb said in a DoD stat…

Hard to say, the vast majority of people with 'Top Secret' clearances don't ever read a single actual regular 'Top Secret' document, even if they work at the same place for years. So if it's declassified down it's unlikely more than maybe 50k people will ever know about it. But then again it could be some super secret thing where previously only 500 people knew about it, or had the full picture, so that would represe…

Top secret really isn't that uncommon of a security clearance. The timeliness of the information is usually what makes it top secret with compartmentalization a norm for all programs (need to know).

Most common thing I saw that was TS:SCI were future or active deployment orders (as foreknowledge could have disastrous consequences).

The really important stuff is under codeword programs. Even if cleared, if knowledge isn't directly needed, then you don't get regardless of clearance.

Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#23

Post by psunavy03 »

tw04 wrote: post #6

This is essentially about letting Space-X in on more military missions that today they can only pass through Boeing and co. Presumably Space-X wasn't willing to take an entire chunk of staff and dedicate them to military-only missions and/or had staff that couldn't even pass the stringent security clearance requirements. The US government still wants to utilize them for missions, especially with starship and its payl…

No, this is not. This is an attempt to bring overclassification under control, which has been admitted in the open press to be an ongoing problem for DOD. No one ever got fired for being too careful with classified. You can lose your job and your career for not being careful enough. On balance this is a good thing, because information is generally classified for a damn good reason, and it's important to keep US adversaries from learning our capabilities and what our playbook would be in a given situation.

But it also culturally leads to the default behavior being "don't share information." Which in turn leads to things being more highly classified than they really need to be, which in turn is a huge bureaucratic drag on getting things done beyond just what may involve SpaceX or Boeing. This reads to be as much or more an effort to make sure things are classified at a sane level, and that the right information is sharable to allies and partners who have the proper clearances. Foreign disclosure of classified and managing information sharing between allied governments is already a huge administrative PITA that gets worse the more closely held the information is. So this seems to be an effort to take a step back and say "OK, let's not go round the bend with secrecy, let's balance protecting our interests with sharing what our allies and partners need to know."

Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#24

Post by MichaelZuo »

FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #22
MichaelZuo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to say, the vast majority of people with 'Top Secret' clearances don't ever read a single actual regular 'Top Secret' document, even if they work at the same place for years. So if it's declassified down it's unlikely more than maybe 50k people will ever know about it. But then again it could be some super secret thing where previously only 500 people knew about it, or had the full picture, so that would represe…

Top secret really isn't that uncommon of a security clearance. The timeliness of the information is usually what makes it top secret with compartmentalization a norm for all programs (need to know). Most common thing I saw that was TS:SCI were future or active deployment orders (as foreknowledge could have disastrous consequences). The really important stuff is under codeword programs. Even if cleared, if knowledge i…

Yes, the statistic is that apparently over a million people have 'Top Secret' clearances of some kind.

Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#25

Post by sandworm101 »

tintor wrote: post #21
sandworm101 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is above anything spacex would need to be told about. Spacex is the delivery driver. They need to know where the sat is going, how much it weighs, and a bit about its needs. They dont need to know what the sat is actually doing, let alone how that function ties into any larger programs.

But they need to know if sat is hazardous and/or radioactive, or what risks it posses to their vehicle.

Sats are sats. They all have thrusters, antennas and solar panels. They have a center of mass, various g limits and have to fit inside the rocket. Everything else can be hidden from the launch provider.

Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#26

Post by aaroninsf »

Idle comment,

among the many forces at work, one is the pressure resulting from the recent intense push for UAP disclosure. Among the specific actionable allegations that have brought by whistleblowers (notably David Grusch) is that there is an exceptional and unwarranted amount of money finding its way to defense and aerospace companies for secret programs which are not subject to congressional oversight; and that one of the conditions for this state of affairs is the out of control evolved intensely siloed classification system.

Independent of any allegations about e.g. NHI, numerous Reps have clearly been motivated into action in this specific area—following the money, which might better have been spent in say their own districts—by what they have been told, e.g. in a much-publicized SCIF briefing a week or so ago. And specifically by being repeatedly stonewalled.

If there's one way to attract Congress' attention, it's to make it clear that money they should have discretion over is being spent in ways that are intentionally hidden from them.

Related: the estimated $1T the Pentagon has not been able to account for in repeated audits.

Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#27

Post by dylan604 »

AlexAndScripts wrote: post #19
dylan604 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you're not reassuring me since Starliner cannot get off the ground.

Or keep its doors attached.

When has Starliner not kept its doors attached? Following the content of a thread is a pretty basic expectation. Derailing it onto other subjects is not helpful nor appreciated.

Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#28

Post by dotancohen »

sandworm101 wrote: post #11
tw04 wrote: post #6

This is essentially about letting Space-X in on more military missions that today they can only pass through Boeing and co. Presumably Space-X wasn't willing to take an entire chunk of staff and dedicate them to military-only missions and/or had staff that couldn't even pass the stringent security clearance requirements. The US government still wants to utilize them for missions, especially with starship and its payl…

I think this is above anything spacex would need to be told about. Spacex is the delivery driver. They need to know where the sat is going, how much it weighs, and a bit about its needs. They dont need to know what the sat is actually doing, let alone how that function ties into any larger programs.

> They need to know where the sat is going, how much it weighs

Tell me that and I'll tell you what the bird is going to do. Specific orbits have very specific purposes, usually. And knowing the size and mass of a satellite gives a lot of information, especially if I can look at it or even just a blurry photograph of it.

Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#29

Post by alephnerd »

psunavy03 wrote: post #23
tw04 wrote: post #6

This is essentially about letting Space-X in on more military missions that today they can only pass through Boeing and co. Presumably Space-X wasn't willing to take an entire chunk of staff and dedicate them to military-only missions and/or had staff that couldn't even pass the stringent security clearance requirements. The US government still wants to utilize them for missions, especially with starship and its payl…

No, this is not. This is an attempt to bring overclassification under control, which has been admitted in the open press to be an ongoing problem for DOD. No one ever got fired for being too careful with classified. You can lose your job and your career for not being careful enough. On balance this is a good thing, because information is generally classified for a damn good reason, and it's important to keep US adver…

> This is an attempt to bring overclassification under control, which has been admitted in the open press to be an ongoing problem for DOD

Can attest to this.

That and our messed up procurement process has caused too much info getting siloed, and slowing down development [0]

[0] - https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/06/09/america-we...

Re: Pentagon moves to declassify some secret space programs and technologies

#30

Post by nebula8804 »

dylan604 wrote: post #27
AlexAndScripts wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or keep its doors attached.

When has Starliner not kept its doors attached? Following the content of a thread is a pretty basic expectation. Derailing it onto other subjects is not helpful nor appreciated.

Maybe it was one of the scripts talking instead of Alex
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