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Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#21

Post by FpUser »

SoftTalker wrote: post #9
msie wrote: post #3

All the PO lawyers rewriting witness statements must go to jail. All the prosecutors must go to jail for negligence and malpractice.

Odd that so often here on HN we talk about how prisons don't work, don't deter crime, don't rehabilitate... yet whenever some CEO or high level official is caught in malfeasance, we insist that "sending them to jail" is the only proper response.

So change prisons with the emphasis on rehabilitating people where possible instead of punishing for the fuck of it. What does that have to do with sending criminals to "rehabilitation" prisons. And when people of power commit crime they must be first in line for compromising integrity.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#22

Post by jpgvm »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #6
msie wrote: post #3

All the PO lawyers rewriting witness statements must go to jail. All the prosecutors must go to jail for negligence and malpractice.

In china they have a saying "A punishment milder than death would not sufficiently assuage public indignation" https://www.tiktok.com/@chinesedemystified/video/71123116513... I only post this as a fascinating example of how different Western and Chinese perspectives can be. Not that these people would be killed in China, or that it would be justice if they were- but we don't even have this in our vocabulary!

I doubt they would have been executed in this case but for heinous corporate crime China doesn't hesitate to apply the death penalty to executives: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8375638.stm

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#23

Post by DiggyJohnson »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

How is that relevant, other than making him a bit of more a hypocrite?

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#24

Post by plagiarist »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #6
msie wrote: post #3

All the PO lawyers rewriting witness statements must go to jail. All the prosecutors must go to jail for negligence and malpractice.

In china they have a saying "A punishment milder than death would not sufficiently assuage public indignation" https://www.tiktok.com/@chinesedemystified/video/71123116513... I only post this as a fascinating example of how different Western and Chinese perspectives can be. Not that these people would be killed in China, or that it would be justice if they were- but we don't even have this in our vocabulary!

We have "death is too good for him" and the West, at least the US, has no shortage of bloodthirsty Calvinist Predestination believers who love to imagine people receiving punishment.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#25

Post by ExoticPearTree »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

Seriously now, with all this information now available, shouldn't all the people that lied and rewrote statements be prosecuted for perjury?

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#26

Post by whyenot »

SoftTalker wrote: post #9
msie wrote: post #3

All the PO lawyers rewriting witness statements must go to jail. All the prosecutors must go to jail for negligence and malpractice.

Odd that so often here on HN we talk about how prisons don't work, don't deter crime, don't rehabilitate... yet whenever some CEO or high level official is caught in malfeasance, we insist that "sending them to jail" is the only proper response.

> here on HN we talk about how prisons don't work

I don't know who has argued that, HN is a community of people all with different views. That's a big part of why I am here!

I think the current crime rate in El Salvador, which is now supposedly lower than in the US, is a pretty clear illustration that prisons do work. Of course, there are also a lot of negatives and injustices with mass imprisonment, but it sure looks like it works to reduce crime.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#27

Post by CM30 »

To an extent, this is basically the norm for most software projects. Often you know there are bugs and issues in a piece of software, but don't consider them enough of a blocker to delay the release date for. That works okay for something like game development where the stakes are very low.

That does not work for a piece of software where people's lives and finances are on the line, especially not when you still accuse people of committing criminal actions knowing full well that it could be the fault of your system's bugs rather than their actions.

Some might question if this 'move fast, break things and ignore bugs that aren't thought to be complete showstoppers' is the right move, but the way they handled it on a business and legal level was definitely the wrong one, and the majority of the problems came from the dodgy actions of the execs and business folks trying to cover things up.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#28

Post by ChrisArchitect »

More/related:

Fixing Horizon bugs would have been too costly, Post Office inquiry told

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39039712

Fujitsu is sorry that its software helped send innocent people to prison

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39038263

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#29

Post by kitd »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #23
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

How is that relevant, other than making him a bit of more a hypocrite?

Her

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#30

Post by at_a_remove »

arp242 wrote: post #13
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…

Wasn't there a study of ethicists which pointed out that even ethicists were not particularly more ethical in their day to day behavior?

More and more, I have come to regard what people state as their beliefs or guiding principles as some kind of mission statement buried on a corporate website. It's more congruent with reality.

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