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Cloudflare lays off new hires

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Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#21

Post by sneed_chucker »

strix_varius wrote: post #4
sneed_chucker wrote: post #3

I wonder if the US will ever get first-world tier labor laws that prevent companies from screwing people over like this. Doesn't seem likely any time soon, but it's so insane how healthcare and everything is tied to an employer and in most places they can just fire you on a whim and not offer severance or anything.

I am absolutely for decoupling healthcare from employment (via universal care), and for mandated severance. However, there's a reason that so many - I'll pick on Germany here - German tech leaders move to the US. When firing employees becomes too hard, hiring is risky, giving people broad latitude is risky, and compensation suffers because high comp is risky. If you're a very capable software engineer, it's better to…

Yeah, I have a lot of friends and family in German and think their labor laws are a little extreme.

Feels like some sort of balance should be achievable?

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#22

Post by akira2501 »

whalesalad wrote: post #11
candiddevmike wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

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I didn't ask to be born therefore I have no duties to you or to anyone other than myself. You accepted no duty to ensure my life was protected from harm or that it's circumstances were fair. You can talk sensibly about global reproductive control once you've ensured that everyone's life is fair and just.

Humans are animals. We individually self regulate or we would die. We collectively don't which is why we were able to make things like the internet. Other species that operate under collective terms don't either. They don't seek equilibrium, they are simply hapless victims to it.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#23

Post by Aurornis »

sneed_chucker wrote: post #3

I wonder if the US will ever get first-world tier labor laws that prevent companies from screwing people over like this. Doesn't seem likely any time soon, but it's so insane how healthcare and everything is tied to an employer and in most places they can just fire you on a whim and not offer severance or anything.

The harder, riskier, and more expensive you make it to hire new people, the more companies will play it safe by avoiding junior hires and putting more headcount in less restrictive countries.

A few jobs ago our mobile dev team was in an EU country with significant protections against firing people. Their interview process involved a take-home problem that would have easily taken 80-100 hours, more with polish. I couldn’t believe anyone would actually do that, but they had a long line of applicants requesting to apply. They said they couldn’t risk hiring anyone who couldn’t demonstrate that they were very good because firing them would be a huge ordeal involving lawyers, months of time, and very expensive payments if it didn’t work out.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#25

Post by xpe »

whalesalad wrote: post #11
candiddevmike wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

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> The animal kingdom operates differently than humanity.

But probably not out of consciousness nor choice. When you study ecosystems, boom and bust cycles are quite common. Visions of "harmonious" nature are greatly exaggerated -- and BTW will get you a tongue-lashing from Werner Herzog.

When you do see an ecosystem in relative harmony, just wait a while :P Even when it seems "calm", I would not tend to attribute that dynamic to "good actors" in any anthropomorphic sense -- as in various species consciously moderating their actions.

Evolving species can face rather brutal environments. Eeeking out an existence seems to have nothing to do with long-term plans. (Aside: this is not to say there is no cooperation between species!)

Now, I'll try to state perhaps a variation of what the above comment might have meant (I'm not sure)... growing too quickly and overcommitting resources is a risky endeavor. Relentless optimization over short time frames can little to brittleness and hurt long-term adaptation.

Last thing: I've studied enough mathematics and optimization to know that it is probably non-obvious -- if not altogether impossible -- to figure out the "optimal" time horizon. Optimization is only solvable if one assumes a particular formulation of a time horizon (or probabilistic blend of time horizons).

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#26

Post by the_optimist »

skywhopper wrote: post #13

I hate this so much. I once worked at a place that did a layoff and caught a person who’d been a two-time intern and had just been hired out of college that same week . There’s no reason the company couldn’t have re-assigned her elsewhere. She’d already proven her value! What a waste to throw away the opportunity for a known-good new hire who could ramp up quickly, and what a horrible thing to inflict on someone just…

Not the corporations, the Fed. The Fed introduces high correlation, compels outsized urgency and economic volatility, and directly sets unemployment targets.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#27

Post by toomuchtodo »

whalesalad wrote: post #8
sneed_chucker wrote: post #3

I wonder if the US will ever get first-world tier labor laws that prevent companies from screwing people over like this. Doesn't seem likely any time soon, but it's so insane how healthcare and everything is tied to an employer and in most places they can just fire you on a whim and not offer severance or anything.

You’re not entitled to a job. It’s a fair market. I for one would not want this kind of environment. Healthcare is a different story.

You don’t need everyone, just a majority. There is no value in arguing with people who think this is sustainable.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#30

Post by samtho »

candiddevmike wrote: post #9
strix_varius wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am absolutely for decoupling healthcare from employment (via universal care), and for mandated severance. However, there's a reason that so many - I'll pick on Germany here - German tech leaders move to the US. When firing employees becomes too hard, hiring is risky, giving people broad latitude is risky, and compensation suffers because high comp is risky. If you're a very capable software engineer, it's better to…

> When firing employees becomes too hard, hiring is risky, giving people broad latitude is risky, and compensation suffers because high comp is risky. I don't follow this conclusion at all.

I don’t see what’s so difficult here.

If it’s risky to hire (because terminating is difficult, takes a long time, is riddled with red tape), then employers will be slow to do so. Less competition for employers to find workers, lower pay overall. High compensation is even risky because of the burden of having to keep employees on due to labor law compliance.

I personally believe it is better to have a robust unemployment insurance system in place that helps workers bridge the gap between jobs.

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