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Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

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Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#21
Here's an anecdote:

In my experience, finding something in Python docs takes a total of five seconds, including passing through the "Google gateway".

Finding something in Rails reference has been downright impossible. This is a function of Ruby itself, a very magical language, magic that fails to communicate in auto-generated documentation. How does this work? Good luck finding out, but you'll feel very clever three hours from now.

Admittedly, I've had very limited exposure to Rails, but perhaps that makes my experience even more relevant.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#22
This reminds me of the jQuery docs situation. Every month or so somebody comes up with an alternative way to access them that's flashy and uses frames with low contrast text and lots of shadows and gradients. I play with the site for 60 seconds thinking "this is neat", and then go back to using the official docs because they come up in a Google search.

I don't think I've ever actually accessed the Python docs in any other way in fact. Same goes for Django. They're clean, static HTML, totally trivial for search engines to index and you always get just what you think you're getting when you click over from a search engine.

Also, unrelated: I learned something today. I read the claim that Python and Ruby are roughly the same age and thought "no way, Python is old-as-hell, Ruby can't be nearly as old". But then Wikipedia pointed out that Python is only 4 years older (1991 vs. 1995).

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#23
post #21

Here's an anecdote: In my experience, finding something in Python docs takes a total of five seconds, including passing through the "Google gateway". Finding something in Rails reference has been downright impossible. This is a function of Ruby itself, a very magical language, magic that fails to communicate in auto-generated documentation. How does this work? Good luck finding out, but you'll feel very clever three…

I'm in the same boat as you. What I've discovered while learning rails is that while you may have a hard time tracking down function names, you'll almost always remember them for next time.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#24
(Disclaimer: I'm the author of one of the books linked at the end of the post.)

Design is not just important for usability, but also for marketing. If you have an awesome framework, you have to get the word out so people know about it and want to use it. It's not the same kind of marketing a business uses because it's not directly tied to revenue, but it is important if you want said framework to be used and its surrounding community to grow.

How many blog posts do you see complaining about or even advocating the new framework hotness? People are jumping ship to Node.js now and saying Rails sucks, and there's consistently a new framework du jour. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is definitely proof that marketing affects framework adoption.

I know it sounds kind of scummy to talk about marketing OSS. The point isn't to position Python as the sexy new language everyone needs to switch to, but to represent the community and quality tools and knowledge it offers. If a new programmer visits the Django site and then the Rails site, might they assume Django is a smaller community because the site isn't as pretty? Maybe the first impression is that Django isn't as well maintained, when we all know that's not true.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#26

It was posts like this that made me decide to learn Python instead of Ruby, many years back when I was trying to decide what new scripting language to learn. I could not find any particular programming advantage of Python over Ruby or vice versa . But from the blog posts it was obvious which community I liked much better: Python's were to the point and technical, if making comparisons with Ruby they'd say they're bot…

Really? In my experience, Django has about the best documentation of any open source web framework. How are the docs lacking? The site's focus is definitely developer-centric. It would be nice if there was either a broader focus on that site or an alternative entry port for non-developer folks--particularly non-technical decision makers.

> Really? In my experience, Django has about the best documentation of any open source web framework. How are the docs lacking?

It's been a few years so I don't recall exactly (and maybe it has improved) but I just found myself browsing and clicking around to re-read particular chapters all the time, that I could only reach via an unintuitive sequence of 2 or 3 clicks.

Only when I found that the docstrings inside Django's code, plus the function signatures and the (IMO very well-written) code itself, were much more useful--as long as you have an IDE that allows one to ctrl-click an identifier to jump to its definition (cross-file/module), only then I got a better grasp on what Django was doing and how it worked.

But then, that's the general take I got from Django after using it for some time: As long as you strictly stay within the "batteries included", it's absolutely great, and the documentation is probably wonderful and sufficient. But as soon as you need to develop your own `ImageFileWithMultipleSizesThumbnailAndExtraCheeseField`, you really need to dive into the innards of the code, the documentation starts lacking, and it's like they never even considered that sometimes your customers prefer their database fields with extra cheese.

Hey but I'm not here to bash Django, it's a great framework (and so is Rails, btw). It's just that next time when I need something like it, I'm going to try and use one of those WSGI things with SQLAlchemy and see how that works for me. I'll probably really miss the automatic admin though.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#27
In defense of Python:

* Rails' website has the design might of 37signals behind it. Most things look bad in comparison. To be fair, Django's website isn't great. Maybe compare Sinatra and Flask's websites too?

* Comparing the personal webpages of the guys behind the main frameworks seems pointless.

* I host Python code on both Heroku and GAE (Heroku isn't only for Ruby). Heroku might be more designed, but GAE certainly isn't ugly, and I think I prefer their documentation.

* Have you compared the official websites for Python and Ruby? I know which one I prefer. Python's documentation is excellent.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#28
post #22

This reminds me of the jQuery docs situation. Every month or so somebody comes up with an alternative way to access them that's flashy and uses frames with low contrast text and lots of shadows and gradients. I play with the site for 60 seconds thinking "this is neat", and then go back to using the official docs because they come up in a Google search. I don't think I've ever actually accessed the Python docs in any…

> I don't think I've ever actually accessed the Python docs in any other way in fact. Same goes for Django. They're clean, static HTML, totally trivial for search engines to index and you always get just what you think you're getting when you click over from a search engine.

I usually download them as local static HTML so I can also access them when I'm coding without stray wireless packets floating in the air.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#30
Years ago when I was learning to code I chose Python over Ruby (and Java, etc) because of the aesthetics of the code. Python is so pleasing to look at on the screen.

I tend to agree with the premise of the article. I've thought the same for years.

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