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The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

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Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#21

Post by semi-extrinsic »

cheeseomlit wrote: post #15

I get the impression reading articles like this that the authors take exception not only to the 'myth' of meritocracy in regards to its misrepresentation in political rhetoric in the past couple centuries, but to the idea of meritocracy itself. There is an underlying animosity towards the very concept that makes me think the idea of any one person being better than another in any regard is what truly makes the author…

My theory is that Americans struggle with this topic because of the distinct lack of socialist (for lack of a better word) policies.

If your society has a rigorous social safety net that essentially prevents homelessness and deep poverty, you can still have meritocracy in how the upper-middle class income is distributed, and still retain a good conscience.

If you have to pass rows upon rows of homeless people on the way to your six-figure-salary job, you need to either get rid of you conscience on behalf of those people, or be deeply critical of the system.

Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#22

Post by Clent »

cheeseomlit wrote: post #18
Clent wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A false belief that we we have control over our destinies and ignoring the vast amount of luck is how we end up with increasing suicide rates. It also leads to poor outcomes because we can blame simply blame the poor performers rather than examine the systems. Why adjust the system when we can blame it on personal failure for free.

You can turn that right around though- Why improve yourself when you can just blame the system? Nature, nurture, free will, and pure luck all have a role to play. Sometimes a system is dysfunctional, sometimes a person within that system is dysfunctional- no matter what there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well (for all parties involved, the system included)

People improve themselves for reasons beyond monetary gain, therefore money is not the sole motivating force.

Your belief that "there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well' is your personal opinion and says more about your personal view of the world. If this is true, why the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety. Why are American's the most stressed out population?

Ignoring the affects of American's economic system and the role it plays in our growing mental health issues is itself not mentally healthy. Blaming each of the millions of individuals for not thriving for personal failings in a system we control is sociopathic.

Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#23

Post by greesil »

Clent wrote: post #10

A myth that runs so deep especially in silicon valley that any article about it gets flagged to death rather than being discredited in the comments.

I agree completely. I also think it's not relevant for HN. It's what we used to call "flamebait".

Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#24

Post by cheeseomlit »

Clent wrote: post #22
cheeseomlit wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can turn that right around though- Why improve yourself when you can just blame the system? Nature, nurture, free will, and pure luck all have a role to play. Sometimes a system is dysfunctional, sometimes a person within that system is dysfunctional- no matter what there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well (for all parties involved, the system included)

People improve themselves for reasons beyond monetary gain, therefore money is not the sole motivating force. Your belief that "there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well' is your personal opinion and says more about your personal view of the world. If this is true, why the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety. Why are American's the most stressed out population? Ignoring…

> Your belief that "there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well' is your personal opinion and says more about your personal view of the world. If this is true, why the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety. Why are American's the most stressed out population?

Not wanting to take responsibility for problems is human nature, and I'd say your denial of it 'says more about your personal view of the world'. Its comforting to blame others when things go wrong so we often do, whether its justified or not. I don't see whats so controversial about that observation.

As for stress in America, there are as many reasons for it as there are Americans. Just because there is an increase in 'suicide, depression, anxiety' doesn't mean you should uncritically ascribe it all to whatever your pet political issue happens to be

> Ignoring the affects of American's economic system and the role it plays in our growing mental health issues is itself not mentally healthy. Blaming each of the millions of individuals for not thriving for personal failings in a system we control is sociopathic.

I never implied I was ignoring the issues with American economics, I'm just trying not to deal in absolutes and blame it all on either the system or the individuals within it- a reasonable take would be to blame the system for its shortcomings and the individuals for theirs, not to maginify or ignore one or the other.

One could easily argue that your mindset is just as mentally debilitating as the one you criticize- IE. the removal of personal agency by blaming the system encourages feelings of helplessness- 'There's no point in trying to improve my lot in life because the system will always keep me down', causing people to miss out on opportunities they'd otherwise take advantage of, keeping them down and increasing their feelings of 'depression and anxiety'

Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#25

Post by fzeroracer »

cheeseomlit wrote: post #24
Clent wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People improve themselves for reasons beyond monetary gain, therefore money is not the sole motivating force. Your belief that "there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well' is your personal opinion and says more about your personal view of the world. If this is true, why the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety. Why are American's the most stressed out population? Ignoring…

> Your belief that "there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well' is your personal opinion and says more about your personal view of the world. If this is true, why the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety. Why are American's the most stressed out population? Not wanting to take responsibility for problems is human nature, and I'd say your denial of it 'says more about your…

There are ultimately a lot of assumptions here that amount to you really, really sitting on the fence super hard.

You assume that blaming the system encourages helplessness, I argue blaming the system encourages people to try and change the system. For example, the medical system in America is the reason why my family was poor. Therefore, I firmly believe the medical system should be torn down and replaced with something better. The first step to fixing a problem is admitting that there is a problem.

Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#26

Post by matrix87 »

Clent wrote: post #13
clintonbush wrote: post #8

This is pure garbage. Please suggest an alternative to "The Myth." I see two immediate problems with any alternative that far out-weigh its purported benefits. (1) Any solution you propose involves a government imposing its will on the people, 'reallocating' their wealth, and using that loot to pick and choose the winners. (2) Any alternative to "The Myth" necessarily deprives people of ownership of their future -- y…

A false belief that we we have control over our destinies and ignoring the vast amount of luck is how we end up with increasing suicide rates. It also leads to poor outcomes because we can blame simply blame the poor performers rather than examine the systems. Why adjust the system when we can blame it on personal failure for free.

> A false belief that we we have control over our destinies and ignoring the vast amount of luck is how we end up with increasing suicide rates.

This seems kind of counterintuitive. If anything, a belief in agency gives people a hope for something better

Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#27

Post by taeric »

Clent wrote: post #10

A myth that runs so deep especially in silicon valley that any article about it gets flagged to death rather than being discredited in the comments.

A lot of the annoyance in SV for this being a "myth" is it easily turns into "the myth of individual achievement." That is, folks see it as an argument to show why individuals are not worthy of the praise they may or may not get.

I think it is very fair to argue against the idea that there are perfect meritocracies. But... there are few perfect anythings? To what end does that argument go?

Put differently, the dream of a meritocracy is far more appealing as an ideal than the vast majority of ideas that have been competed with it.

To directly address the rhetoric of the article. The concern at the end of "It will be no small task to right this ship, and to refit it to more closely resemble the vessel of opportunity we aspire to." But, the entire point of the success of the US system is that we do, in fact, have the best chance at getting to this ideal over anyone else. And we have had our best successes not be replacing older ways, but by incorporating them into what we try next.

We more closely resemble that aspiration today than we ever have in the past. And yet we have far more calls for ceasing our progress in the name of past mistakes than ever in our past, too. This could be fine, as we also have far more capability today than ever in the past. But it is tiresome to hear wave after wave of why the successes we have, are somehow not actually successes at all.

Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#28

Post by cheeseomlit »

fzeroracer wrote: post #25
cheeseomlit wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your belief that "there's always a tendency to avoid personal responsibility when things don't go well' is your personal opinion and says more about your personal view of the world. If this is true, why the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety. Why are American's the most stressed out population? Not wanting to take responsibility for problems is human nature, and I'd say your denial of it 'says more about your…

There are ultimately a lot of assumptions here that amount to you really, really sitting on the fence super hard. You assume that blaming the system encourages helplessness, I argue blaming the system encourages people to try and change the system. For example, the medical system in America is the reason why my family was poor. Therefore, I firmly believe the medical system should be torn down and replaced with somet…

You say fence-sitting, I say moderate. Anyways, you're absolutely right that 'The first step to fixing a problem is admitting that there is a problem.' My argument is that principle applies for both the system and the individual, not just one or the other. Blaming the system encourages systemic change, but blaming the individual can encourage personal change. It depends on the situation. Often both are at fault to different degrees and just blame each other, never acknowledging their own faults.

To your point, sometimes the system really is a rotten edifice of garbage that needs to be eradicated and rebuilt. I have my own experiences with the american medical system and I'm with you there completely. I don't think any amount of personal merit is going to help you navigate that particular system, its fundamentally broken. So yes the blame there is justified, and hopefully that blame does encourage it to change.

On the other hand, to give a topical example- Let's say Jimmy weighs 600 lbs and never exercised a day in his life, and now he's facing an absurd medical bill for his heart surgery. There's plenty of blame to go around there, there are certainly some systemic factors at play (not the least of which being the medical system taking advantage of him), but to completely absolve Jimmy of personal responsibility for his poor choices and just blame the system is unhealthy, and does encourage a sense of individual helplessness. Yes the system should be blamed and changed for all the things it did wrong, but so should Jimmy

The point is that blame should be assigned where its deserved in the degree that it's deserved, but often the individualists will just blame the individual and the collectivists will blame the system, with no nuance in between

Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#29

Post by nyokodo »

Clent wrote: post #13
clintonbush wrote: post #8

This is pure garbage. Please suggest an alternative to "The Myth." I see two immediate problems with any alternative that far out-weigh its purported benefits. (1) Any solution you propose involves a government imposing its will on the people, 'reallocating' their wealth, and using that loot to pick and choose the winners. (2) Any alternative to "The Myth" necessarily deprives people of ownership of their future -- y…

A false belief that we we have control over our destinies and ignoring the vast amount of luck is how we end up with increasing suicide rates. It also leads to poor outcomes because we can blame simply blame the poor performers rather than examine the systems. Why adjust the system when we can blame it on personal failure for free.

> the vast amount of luck

Intelligence and who your parents are, are certainly the luck of the draw. But, why are hard working and industrious people overrepresented amongst the “lucky”? There’s plenty of evidence that merely being lucky doesn’t make you hard working so it would seem that being hardworking and industrious tends to allow you to take advantage of the luck that comes your way.

Re: The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History

#30

Post by drewcoo »

clintonbush wrote: post #8

This is pure garbage. Please suggest an alternative to "The Myth." I see two immediate problems with any alternative that far out-weigh its purported benefits. (1) Any solution you propose involves a government imposing its will on the people, 'reallocating' their wealth, and using that loot to pick and choose the winners. (2) Any alternative to "The Myth" necessarily deprives people of ownership of their future -- y…

> Please suggest an alternative to "The Myth."

Read some Zinn.

https://www.howardzinn.org/collection/peoples-history/

You're welcome.

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