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Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

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Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#21

Post by yobbo »

mort96 wrote: post #15
vouaobrasil wrote: post #12

Running a mail server should be something anyone can do. And while this is cool, there are so many other problems to do it. It's the price we pay of letting big tech companies control so much of the virtual infrastructure: big tech has commoditized the internet so much into a platform for consumerism that it becomes a valuable target for spam. In my opinion, the internet would be much better if none of the big player…

The basic fact of the matter is that >99% of people will never be interested in hosting their own e-mail server, and that's okay. This means we need organizations to host e-mail for people. In a capitalist system, that means companies, and it leads to consolidation and monopolization. So far, governments have been seemingly uninterested in going after the large e-mail providers for anticompetitive practices; maybe th…

> In a capitalist system, that means companies, and it leads to consolidation and monopolization.

No, a "capitalist system" does not lead to consolidation and monopolization.

Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#22

Post by V__ »

Is this mira of a U.S. centric problem? I selfhost my mail in Germany, have one at a smaller mail provider and never had problems.

It is also not uncommon for companies to either have a local Exchange Server or use the mail service at their hosting provider. If everything is configured correctly, delivery works fine.

Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#23

Post by thejosh »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #12

Running a mail server should be something anyone can do. And while this is cool, there are so many other problems to do it. It's the price we pay of letting big tech companies control so much of the virtual infrastructure: big tech has commoditized the internet so much into a platform for consumerism that it becomes a valuable target for spam. In my opinion, the internet would be much better if none of the big player…

The main benefit of Gmail and other big providers is the anti-spam, anti-scam, "Google knows best" approach works really well.

When I last helped manage a mail server for a small business (late 2000's) SPAM was an absolute mess. You can really see why Azure etc has consumed on-premise Exchange.

The massive downside is they are the deciders of who gets through their gates, and if you're on their shitlist, goodluck.

Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#24

Post by vouaobrasil »

thejosh wrote: post #23
vouaobrasil wrote: post #12

Running a mail server should be something anyone can do. And while this is cool, there are so many other problems to do it. It's the price we pay of letting big tech companies control so much of the virtual infrastructure: big tech has commoditized the internet so much into a platform for consumerism that it becomes a valuable target for spam. In my opinion, the internet would be much better if none of the big player…

The main benefit of Gmail and other big providers is the anti-spam, anti-scam, "Google knows best" approach works really well. When I last helped manage a mail server for a small business (late 2000's) SPAM was an absolute mess. You can really see why Azure etc has consumed on-premise Exchange. The massive downside is they are the deciders of who gets through their gates, and if you're on their shitlist, goodluck.

On the other hand, if the main economic mechanisms that help the major players did not exist, we might not have so much spam in the first place.

Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#25

Post by vouaobrasil »

yobbo wrote: post #21
mort96 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic fact of the matter is that >99% of people will never be interested in hosting their own e-mail server, and that's okay. This means we need organizations to host e-mail for people. In a capitalist system, that means companies, and it leads to consolidation and monopolization. So far, governments have been seemingly uninterested in going after the large e-mail providers for anticompetitive practices; maybe th…

> In a capitalist system, that means companies, and it leads to consolidation and monopolization. No, a "capitalist system" does not lead to consolidation and monopolization.

That is true, but an unbridled capitalistic system that has relatively weak controls for protection of the commens DOES lead to such things frequently. I am not against capitalism, but against the form of capitalism we have today, which is focused on arbitrary and endless growth with relatively little controls to prevent pathologies like Google.

Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#26

Post by Pathogen-David »

BSDobelix wrote: post #6
abberation wrote: post #2

Wow, Outlook actually tells you they blocked you? My email (custom gmail domain btw) just ends up in the Spam folder of outlook clients with no notification at all.

Have you tested with: https://www.mail-tester.com/

Another useful tool is https://www.learndmarc.com/ -- I found the presentation very helpful when I was finally getting on the DMARC train a while back.

Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#27

Post by riedel »

thejosh wrote: post #23
vouaobrasil wrote: post #12

Running a mail server should be something anyone can do. And while this is cool, there are so many other problems to do it. It's the price we pay of letting big tech companies control so much of the virtual infrastructure: big tech has commoditized the internet so much into a platform for consumerism that it becomes a valuable target for spam. In my opinion, the internet would be much better if none of the big player…

The main benefit of Gmail and other big providers is the anti-spam, anti-scam, "Google knows best" approach works really well. When I last helped manage a mail server for a small business (late 2000's) SPAM was an absolute mess. You can really see why Azure etc has consumed on-premise Exchange. The massive downside is they are the deciders of who gets through their gates, and if you're on their shitlist, goodluck.

Safety and security is the best argument for monopolization and decreased freedom in general. It will always be a tradeoff. Fortunately a majority is typically more than happy with being fully patronized. The problem really starts if you are start being banned from infrastructure: e.g. see banking apps and 'safety net'. We are seeing the begining of a really dystopian world if regulators do not step in.

Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#28

Post by tschumacher »

thejosh wrote: post #23
vouaobrasil wrote: post #12

Running a mail server should be something anyone can do. And while this is cool, there are so many other problems to do it. It's the price we pay of letting big tech companies control so much of the virtual infrastructure: big tech has commoditized the internet so much into a platform for consumerism that it becomes a valuable target for spam. In my opinion, the internet would be much better if none of the big player…

The main benefit of Gmail and other big providers is the anti-spam, anti-scam, "Google knows best" approach works really well. When I last helped manage a mail server for a small business (late 2000's) SPAM was an absolute mess. You can really see why Azure etc has consumed on-premise Exchange. The massive downside is they are the deciders of who gets through their gates, and if you're on their shitlist, goodluck.

In my experience rspamd has >99% accuracy which is enough for my personal email account. I don't doubt that Google does better though.

Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#29

Post by vouaobrasil »

riedel wrote: post #27
thejosh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main benefit of Gmail and other big providers is the anti-spam, anti-scam, "Google knows best" approach works really well. When I last helped manage a mail server for a small business (late 2000's) SPAM was an absolute mess. You can really see why Azure etc has consumed on-premise Exchange. The massive downside is they are the deciders of who gets through their gates, and if you're on their shitlist, goodluck.

Safety and security is the best argument for monopolization and decreased freedom in general. It will always be a tradeoff. Fortunately a majority is typically more than happy with being fully patronized. The problem really starts if you are start being banned from infrastructure: e.g. see banking apps and 'safety net'. We are seeing the begining of a really dystopian world if regulators do not step in.

The problem with "more than happy" is that their happiness is measured in terms of chosing the local maximum of least bad. Moreover, that local maxima slowly changs over time to be worse and worse, so that people's happiness becomes a temporary sense of relief at having chosen the least bad option, which in the course of decades makes for a curtailing of freedoms that is far from true contentment.

Re: Outlook/Hotmail is no longer blocking my mail server

#30

Post by midasuni »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #19
haunter wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the internet would be much better if none of the big players ever entered it, including Google, Facebook, Yahoo, etc, How this could have been possible? Like there must have been some outside regulations in the late 90s/early 2000s. Maybe as an effect of the dotcom bubble? Also it’s a good theory but doesn’t fit the capitalist picture at all.

There was no option due to lack of upload bandwidth for individuals at their home. And CGNAT. If there had been significant populations with sufficient upload capacity, and ipv6, then there could have been a market for network devices that operated out of people’s homes under their own control. Not that this would have ensured that big players would not exist, but it could have technically allowed a solution to be in…

For running mail you don’t need upload bandwidth, and in my country certainly outside of mobile, CG nat isn’t a thing. Static IPs tend to cost a pound or two more a month from many ISPs but not all.

20 years ago, and of course before then in the dialup age, your ISP operated your mail, so there was plenty of competition. Free at the point of use mail which meant you weren’t locked to a single ISP so there were benefits, but the big benefit was the unlimited space that the funding of companies like google allowed for, they could muscle in and knock out competition.

Eventually isps stopped providing as demand was tiny and the cost outweighed it. Same with things like nntp servers.

I pay a couple of quid a month to Zoho to provide my mail, off my own domain. Obviously I have static ip4 and 6 addresses from my ISP, but I’m happy to outsource as long as the cost is transparent and I’m not locked in, so I do. Part of that is to fund companies which are better armed to fight against monopolistic email practices than I am on my own.

There are other suppliers I can shift to by moving my MX records and updating a couple of TXTs, but there’s no need to at the moment.

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