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HyperRogue, a open-source non-Euclidean roguelike: new weapons

zenorogue.blogspot.com

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Re: HyperRogue, a open-source non-Euclidean roguelike: new weapons

#21

Post by zenorogue »

4death4 wrote: post #18
pierrec wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that it's hard to tell from the screenshots, but I'd say this game is way more non-euclidian than a mere "euclidian plus portals" kind of space. It's not simply the projection that makes it look strange, and there is no projection that can possibly make a hyperbolic world look like a normal 2d world. For example, a circle in hyperbolic space contains a lot more space than a circle in euclidian space with th…

I just tried the game. Let me preface this comment by saying that I think any exploration of new game techniques is always worthwhile, and, more broadly, creating anything is always positive. I have no expectation that the author of this game created it to please me. That being said, I standby my initial comment. After playing the game, I see how hyperbolic geometric affects movement in the world. What still remains…

It is possible to run the game in a Euclidean hex grid and compare. For example:

* In Euclidean open space, if you are attacked by two adjacent monsters at once, you cannot escape, because the monsters would just move in parallel lines. In hyperbolic, you can, because parallel lines do not work.

* In Euclidean open space, if you are ambushed by many (say, 12) monsters on all sides, you cannot escape. In hyperbolic, you can. There is always more directions than it seems.

There is a land Hunting Grounds which teaches the tactics above. It simply does not work in Euclidean mode. There is also this article: http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/2012/03/hyperbolic-geometry-in...

Re: HyperRogue, a open-source non-Euclidean roguelike: new weapons

#22

Post by nextaccountic »

4death4 wrote: post #6

Other than the visualization, what specific aspect of non-Euclidean space is leveraged? For instance, if you were project the space on to a rectangle, what would fundamentally change about the game? The coolest non-Euclidean game ideas I've seen involve violation of the triangle inequality of metric spaces, i.e. the shortest path between two points is not necessarily a straight line (e.g. Portal). Just from the artic…

hyperbolic space means that as you walk, there is much more space around you than you would have guessed from euclidian geometry; exponentially more space. so space is not a grid, but it is exponentially branching

it's like.. suppose your space is discrete like in this game (if it's continuous it's the same argument basically), if you walk N steps in arbitrary directions in euclidian space, you can be sure you are confined in a N x N square so there are N^2 possible tiles you could be. in hyperbolic space your possibilities are much larger, space grows exponentially so you easily get lost

anyway that's why parallel lines diverge in hyperbolic space: if you have two parallel trajectories that go in the same direction they get further and further apart because as you go, there is more space around each trajectory

this means that unless you retrace your exact steps, it's very very hard to get back to your starting position after you wander for a while. navigation becomes almost impossible and it's not a matter of recognizing landmarks because you may never get to see the same landmarks again

so in this game you are always walking towards new stuff; even if you go back, you won't find the placew you were before

good thing it is procedurally generated then, and it basically doesn't matter much where you are because the game is pretty much the same everywhere (it has biomes but they just determine your enemies and stuff like that)

a game like this but with a plot would be much harder and maybe require some sort of teleport or transport network

Re: HyperRogue, a open-source non-Euclidean roguelike: new weapons

#26

Post by zenorogue »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #24
contingencies wrote: post #5

Congratulations. Definitely one of the most polished and unique roguelikes on Steam.

Given steam features the binding of isaac, hades and inscryption, I can't understand your comment.

Might depend on the interpretation of "roguelike" -- Rogue combined single-character adventure with grid tactics, so to many people, "roguelike" means single-character grid tactics, usually with some other less unique features (such as randomness), just like it did in the 80s. This was also the most important roguelike feature for the design of HyperRogue. While more commonly "roguelike" is used for marketing anything that takes whatever inspiration from a game marketed as roguelike. In the roguelike communities, mentioning The Binding of Isaac (in a way suggesting that roguelike means a game like it) happens regularly and yields very negative reactions, because it is not tactical and thus not interesting to the community. Similar for the other ones you mention.

Still, there are many very polished roguelikes on Steam (Dungeons of Dredmor, Crown Trick, Sproggiwood, Moonring, etc.).

Re: HyperRogue, a open-source non-Euclidean roguelike: new weapons

#27

Post by [deleted] »

zenorogue wrote: post #26
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given steam features the binding of isaac, hades and inscryption, I can't understand your comment.

Might depend on the interpretation of "roguelike" -- Rogue combined single-character adventure with grid tactics, so to many people, "roguelike" means single-character grid tactics, usually with some other less unique features (such as randomness), just like it did in the 80s. This was also the most important roguelike feature for the design of HyperRogue. While more commonly "roguelike" is used for marketing anythin…

[deleted]

Re: HyperRogue, a open-source non-Euclidean roguelike: new weapons

#28

Post by antifa »

4death4 wrote: post #18
pierrec wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that it's hard to tell from the screenshots, but I'd say this game is way more non-euclidian than a mere "euclidian plus portals" kind of space. It's not simply the projection that makes it look strange, and there is no projection that can possibly make a hyperbolic world look like a normal 2d world. For example, a circle in hyperbolic space contains a lot more space than a circle in euclidian space with th…

I just tried the game. Let me preface this comment by saying that I think any exploration of new game techniques is always worthwhile, and, more broadly, creating anything is always positive. I have no expectation that the author of this game created it to please me. That being said, I standby my initial comment. After playing the game, I see how hyperbolic geometric affects movement in the world. What still remains…

I think a Lovecraftian game could make use of this concept, but otherwise I consider it just a gimmick or tech demo, not a killer feature.

Re: HyperRogue, a open-source non-Euclidean roguelike: new weapons

#29

Post by gqcwwjtg »

4death4 wrote: post #6

Other than the visualization, what specific aspect of non-Euclidean space is leveraged? For instance, if you were project the space on to a rectangle, what would fundamentally change about the game? The coolest non-Euclidean game ideas I've seen involve violation of the triangle inequality of metric spaces, i.e. the shortest path between two points is not necessarily a straight line (e.g. Portal). Just from the artic…

It exists in a hyperbolic space. So the area reachable in radius r is not r^2, but x^r for some x>1.

It doesn’t violate the triangle inequality, but it does mean that there’s way more than one parallel line through a given point off an initial line. I think that’s Euclid’s axiom.

Intuitively, the mechanics make it easier to run away from groups of enemies, since the angle it would take to follow you is more precise. It also makes it harder to find and return to earlier locations. In fact, to win the game you have to find an “orb of yendor”, then a key spawns 100 tiles away with an arrow helping you find it. The hard part is getting back to the orb once you get the key.

Re: HyperRogue, a open-source non-Euclidean roguelike: new weapons

#30

Post by zenorogue »

antifa wrote: post #28
4death4 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just tried the game. Let me preface this comment by saying that I think any exploration of new game techniques is always worthwhile, and, more broadly, creating anything is always positive. I have no expectation that the author of this game created it to please me. That being said, I standby my initial comment. After playing the game, I see how hyperbolic geometric affects movement in the world. What still remains…

I think a Lovecraftian game could make use of this concept, but otherwise I consider it just a gimmick or tech demo, not a killer feature.

But how much have you played it?

When I started working on HyperRogue, I expected it to be a "gimmick or tech demo" as you say. But after implementing the basic roguelike gameplay, it felt surprisingly good, better than what I had actually planned. So released it, and other people liked it too.

So it is not surprising that people expect it to be a gimmick (given that I did expect that hyperbolic geometry would make basic roguelike gameplay feel better myself). Some people do not get it on their first try, but love it on their second try.

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