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The Great AI Weirding

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Re: The Great AI Weirding

#21

The open secret is that top-quartile R1 CS faculty positions aren't coveted anymore and don't attract the best like they used to. The choice is now between increasingly tenuous/meaningless tenure after 5-10 years and a $500K/year lower bound for 10-12 years. That choice is... not a hard choice for anyone who values intellectual freedom. And the right answer sure as shit isn't the faculty position. A good 50% of those…

Much of this could be true, but I’ve seen R1-tenure-caliber PhDs come on staff at top industry labs for a lot more than the pay you’re suggesting.

Re: The Great AI Weirding

#22

H index? I see people caring far more about the quality of the conference for your paper. Paper at NeurIPS or ACL or EMNLP will be worth more than papers at 2nd rate venues. Usually researchers doing real SOTA work haven’t even had time for their other work to be cited heavily yet

The two are intertwined. Getting into a top tier conference makes your work much more likely to get a high citation count (and thus h-index) regardless of the quality of that work.

Yes, higher quality work means higher chance of getting in, but we'd be naive to assume there's a strong correlation between the two given substantial evidence to the contrary and no clear mechanism to make such a connection.

> Usually researchers doing real SOTA work haven’t even had time for their other work to be cited heavily yet

Weird, I'd say the opposite. How to get high citations: tweak currently popular model/architecture so that it gets SOTA results, place on paperswithcode leaderboard (maybe don't even release code), release paper to arxiv. More datasets you cover, the better. Frankly, SOTA doesn't mean meaningful work. I even say this as an author of SOTA works.

Re: The Great AI Weirding

#23
post #5

What is RL?

Reinforcement Learning. They are referencing a concept known as Reward Hacking (see Robert Miles videos for a high level explanation). You may be familiar with the concept already though, see Goodhart's Law.

Re: The Great AI Weirding

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

having a kid work basically 14 hour days for years and years so they can get into the best school based on the criteria of the ivy league, it becomes very easy to downplay the importance of communication and social skills, like empathy, play, dealing with difficult people, emotional intelligence, etc etc. this is how people like Sam Bankman Fried and Caroline Ellison develop into having sociopathic patterns of behavi…

Sam Bankman doesn’t strike me as a hard working student though his upbringing could have the expectation to outdo his parents, both of them professors in Ivi League schools if I remember correctly. The appetite for risk may be a byproduct of that though…

IIRC they teach/taught at Stanford, which is in the Pac-12 (until next year, when it joins the ACC) rather than the Ivy League.

Re: The Great AI Weirding

#25
post #3

The key, from my perspective, is to focus on real work which produces real value for other human beings. In an academic context I admit that it can be difficult to attach this value to your work. As well, in this article, a person bemoans the opportunities their parents gave them; piano lessons, math competitions, etc. Even though they have clearly benefited from these advantages, it's unclear to me if the person ack…

The sad bit to me is doing all of these things to pad a college application rather than for interest or enjoyment. I actually enjoyed math team and continued math competitions in college.

Though I almost wish I'd been more vigorously encouraged to study piano, since I have little time or motivation to practice it now.

As indicated, getting into Stanford still qualifies as winning the elite college admissions lottery, even if one might have preferred Princeton or MIT. (And Stanford likely provides some advantages as well.)

Re: The Great AI Weirding

#26

    We saw examples of simple quantification of people and activities, such as using counts of likes, stars, commits, and papers, and even more informed metrics like H-Index can lead to strange outcomes. AI will make the world even more quantifiable and, in many cases, falsely quantifiable. Ever since the first ape held two sticks in the left hand and three in the right and wondered which was more, ranking things by quantity is in our nature. The ape’s descendants have now discovered a ranking hammer, and everything will look like ordered lists. Ordered lists bring legibility, and what is not legible cannot be governed and subject to value extraction. The false quantification and rank ordering of things using AI will bring real-world weirdness in how people function, which has nothing to do with the functions they carry out. I call this the “Great AI Weirding”.
This reminds me of what Baudrillard terms "the precession of simulacra," in which successively more abstract representations of reality (from crude maps, to "hyperrealistic" GTA V-esque video game maps that are sometimes "more real" than reality itself) end up supplanting and taking place of the real. We no longer have people pursuing interests for their own sake (as per the "mathematician vs. mathlete" distinction made in the OP), but merely to construct a digital simulacrum of themselves, one which is able to inflate all the right metrics (there is a digression to Goodhart's Law [1] here) and win the same mechanistic games that we use as a proxy to measure value or worth in the world.

    Ceci n'est pas une pipe. [...] All of these things have gone beyond what they point to.
That's it; we no longer have real pipes, but only abstract symbols and depictions of them. Having "precessed" past the era of when symbols were meant to point to, refer to, an underlying referent, they have become objects, referents in and of themselves - objects partaking of a purely abstract, symbolic reality. Instead of taking the pointer as a clue to investigating the nature of the referent, we accept the reality of the indirection itself; anything underneath our numerical abstraction is simply an "implementation detail."

    In other words, they get huge information satisfaction from ads, far more than they do from the product itself. Where advertising is heading is quite simply into a world where the ad will become a substitute for the product, and all the satisfactions will be derived informationally from the ad, and the product will be merely a number in some file.

    - Marshall McLuhan, 1966. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNxo7fK-MJs
Consider this substitution: "all the satisfactions will be derived informationally from the [social media profile], and the [person] will be merely a number in some file." And yet of course, if you are "illegible," inscrutable, with little to no digital media presence nor statistics on your past "RL Career Game" history and performance, are you competent at all? Do you even _exist_? Does Harry, mathlete-turned-mathematician, even understand mathematics? Where is his Olympiad performance history? "[...] he became useless at competitions?" Oh.

I have recently been watching John Vervaeke, assistant prof at UofT in the fields of cognitive science and Buddhist psychology, and his lecture series "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis," where he describes the phenomenon of cognitive fluency:

    When you increase the ease at which people can process information, regardless of what that information is, they come to believe it as more real, they have more confidence in it, etc.

    - John Vervaeke, "Continuous Cosmos and Modern World Grammar," Awakening from the Meaning Crisis, 2019. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1AaqD8t3pk
We have increased the ease at which people can process information, _about other people;_ and regardless of any correlation between the "quantified self" or the person's metrics, and the person-themselves, we come to believe that simulacrum of the person more real, develop more confidence in the constructed persona they project and their capabilities, etc. Conversely, a dearth of information regarding an individual makes them "illegible," somehow fictional, less real.

For all this, it takes a great leap of faith to object to playing these kinds of meaningless abstract games, at great personal risk and cost to one's self; yet I am not sure how to meaningfully participate in these systems without upholding and lending implicit assent to the fictions that they rely on. I am reminded of some meditations on Moloch regarding the matter.

One hope I have from Vervaeke's series is in his exploration of the notion of shamanism, and their role in society as developing new psychotechnologies and disrupting civilization's facilities for pattern recognition - altering their sense of what is important, altering their sense of selves, and altering the very way we think in the world. I look forward to a revival of the shamanistic tradition, applied to "cyberspace," (heh) to help us navigate the ways in which digital technology has altered our senses of meaning, what is actually important, and indeed of self and identity.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

Re: The Great AI Weirding

#27
post #3

The key, from my perspective, is to focus on real work which produces real value for other human beings. In an academic context I admit that it can be difficult to attach this value to your work. As well, in this article, a person bemoans the opportunities their parents gave them; piano lessons, math competitions, etc. Even though they have clearly benefited from these advantages, it's unclear to me if the person ack…

> real work which produces real value for other human beings

I've felt the same way in tech. I've seen so many job listings that are just an endless series of buzzwords or the latest iteration of data adtech analysis integrated lake warehouse whatever and found myself wondering when and where it translates into actually affecting the lives of anyone beyond interchangeable corporate middle managers.

Re: The Great AI Weirding

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is not necessarily about academia, I think it’s actually more geared towards “industry” AI researchers.

Honestly, is there a big difference anymore? The vast majority of papers I read are either by industry directly or have industry as a partner (as an author, not just acknowledgements). There are of course some, and even plenty of examples, but it does seem industry partners is almost necessary these days. I'm not convinced that level of interaction is healthy, for either parties.

> Honestly, is there a big difference anymore? The vast majority of papers I read are either by industry directly or have industry as a partner (as an author, not just acknowledgements).

Read more pure math papers, then you will see the difference. :-)

Re: The Great AI Weirding

#29
post #11

We, collectively as a community, are forced to play these stupid RL career games because if you refuse, you become illegible and, consequently, invisible to sources of physical, emotional, and intellectual sustenance. It’s like we are all trapped in vicious cycles of RL career games while hoovering up others in these cycles. Once a critical threshold of people start playing these RL career games, these terrible metri…

I did that with a few interns/junior people and they turned out to be disappointing rather than predictably satisfying. I still agree with you, because I want to believe it pays off in the long run. But it definitely comes at a real short term cost.

Tide may be overrated, over-promoted, and overpriced, but people who buy it know that it is going to get their clothes clean.

Re: The Great AI Weirding

#30
> AI will make the world even more quantifiable and, in many cases, falsely quantifiable.

> The false quantification and rank ordering of things using AI will bring real-world weirdness in how people function, which has nothing to do with the functions they carry out. I call this the “Great AI Weirding”.

If anything AI is the sort of power tool that should let everyone make up their own rankings more easily, and be less limited by what others have decided people should be judged by.

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