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More product, fewer product managers

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21–30 of 314 posts

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#21

Barely relevant to the article, but this new trend of AI art as the main image of blog articles drives me absolutely crazy - if you don't have a clear main image in mind when you wrote the article, don't waste my bandwidth downloading a computers pipe dream. I'm all for AI art, it's an incredibly valuable tool - but if your using an AI piece as the only image on the page, it should be for a damn good reason, not just…

Even before this, the trend of hero image which takes up most of the space above the fold, has been insufferable. This is just a continuation of that, which hasn't gone away either.

Here's an article on selinux, bit first an image of a leaf.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#22
post #6

As a developer, and a development manager, the best product managers I've worked with rarely got involved in the "how". Sure, they may generate epic-level tickets in your back log, but lower than that, they trust you and the project people to get things done. Problem is, the org needs to support that, and in most companies, the work that gets the most attention isn't visionary or growth focused, it's whatever is maki…

> As a developer, and a development manager, the best product managers I've worked with rarely got involved in the "how".

My experience is completely the opposite. PMs that don't understand the how, that is, they don't know how their product works, are the worst.

Best PMs that I worked with had a technical background.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#23
post #19

Barely relevant to the article, but this new trend of AI art as the main image of blog articles drives me absolutely crazy - if you don't have a clear main image in mind when you wrote the article, don't waste my bandwidth downloading a computers pipe dream. I'm all for AI art, it's an incredibly valuable tool - but if your using an AI piece as the only image on the page, it should be for a damn good reason, not just…

It's not just AI art. Memes and unrelated stock image have also been used. It might be due to some SEO belief.

God I hate memes on medium pages.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#24
post #6

As a developer, and a development manager, the best product managers I've worked with rarely got involved in the "how". Sure, they may generate epic-level tickets in your back log, but lower than that, they trust you and the project people to get things done. Problem is, the org needs to support that, and in most companies, the work that gets the most attention isn't visionary or growth focused, it's whatever is maki…

> As a developer, and a development manager, the best product managers I've worked with rarely got involved in the "how". My experience is completely the opposite. PMs that don't understand the how, that is, they don't know how their product works, are the worst. Best PMs that I worked with had a technical background.

I believe OP meant « implementation » with « how ».

You want a PM that knows the product (really) well and brings new work to the developers in the form of well documented problems, not solutions.

You don’t want your PM to get involved in the technical details.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#25
When I was a software engineer, I used to think I was the smartest person in the room, and derided the work of product managers, delivery managers and to some extent engineering managers. I've had experience of engineering roles up to Principal and Hands-on CTO and felt that we didn't need the non-engineering backgrounds at all.

Today, I find myself in a senior TPM role for a FAANG who also has "product manager" in his customer-facing job role.

I cringe at my behaviour 15 years ago. I shake my head as a I hear software engineers using the same arguments I did. "We know how to do product management, you're just slowing us down".

In recent years, on a few internal projects I step back and watch projects with no product or project management resource - just engineers - and the same pattern emerges over and over again: no clear customer-facing objectives, not enough time spent listening to customers, not enough work in the ramp up to design, not enough work in figuring out the long-term operational factors of owning a product, poor customer communication (no, they'd don't understand your technical documents, sorry, and they've told you that, and you don't know what to do about it, but huh, isn't this tricky?), and more often than not, misaligned internal objectives and politics meaning the product has "camps", driven by individual preferences and career/promotion objectives.

It's a mess. Every time.

You might not need product managers, but you need product management, and most engineers are atrocious at it. They want to focus on the technical work and are not prepared to commit to the work that comes with product management. It's often wise to just hire product managers.

You might not need project managers, but you need project management, and engineers are often poor at it. You probably should have project managers. Product managers often have better organisational skills - and the attuned level of empathy needed to listen to all stakeholders which is needed in project management - to be able to do project management too.

If you're still not convinced look at OSS. Most of it is only accessibly to other engineers, until one of two things happen: a project starts to ape product design decisions made by commercial projects, which has happened with a lot of office and graphics programs; or, somebody with real product management expertise gets involved and is able to influence the project.

I know many people will disagree. They'll insist they know better. I expect downvotes because some people will feel affronted.

I know this, because 15 years ago I felt the same. I was wrong. You're wrong if you feel that way too, and you'll realise it over time, particularly if you're asked to do it for a while. Product management is a real skill.

And yes, most teams could do it better. And project management skills - particularly agile skills - are awful in the industry. But please, stop thinking the answer is more engineers.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#26
post #6

As a developer, and a development manager, the best product managers I've worked with rarely got involved in the "how". Sure, they may generate epic-level tickets in your back log, but lower than that, they trust you and the project people to get things done. Problem is, the org needs to support that, and in most companies, the work that gets the most attention isn't visionary or growth focused, it's whatever is maki…

Product managers own the "Why?" and the "What?". Project managers own the "When?". Engineering managers own the "Who?". Engineers own the "How?".

When people try treading on other patches, it always ends in disaster. That works both ways: engineers are lousy at the "Why?" and the "What?" because they think too much in terms of "How?"; and yes, product managers need to step away from the "How?" unless it's to clarify the "What?" or the "Why?".

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#27
This article and many people attempting to analyze this topic (and many others) are missing a key element: "incentives"!

Many developers are more passionate about technology itself – coding, solving complex technical problems, and creating efficient solutions. Their formal rewards (like promotions, bonuses, and recognition) are often tied to technical achievements. If a developer spends 40 hours on customer research, this effort might not be as formally recognized or rewarded as much as a technical achievement like developing a new authentication solution that benefits the entire team.

Shifting this dynamic is not just about encouraging developers to spend more time on product management. It requires a systemic change in how organizations value and reward.

Changing the incentive structure to be more user-centric and less technically focused would significantly impact middle and upper management roles. A shift would challenge the very foundations of their roles and responsibilities, potentially leading to a loss of control and influence.

It's likely that such changes would face subtle yet strong resistance from middle and upper management. These individuals often have significant political power within an organization and a vested interest.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#28
post #6

As a developer, and a development manager, the best product managers I've worked with rarely got involved in the "how". Sure, they may generate epic-level tickets in your back log, but lower than that, they trust you and the project people to get things done. Problem is, the org needs to support that, and in most companies, the work that gets the most attention isn't visionary or growth focused, it's whatever is maki…

> As a developer, and a development manager, the best product managers I've worked with rarely got involved in the "how". My experience is completely the opposite. PMs that don't understand the how, that is, they don't know how their product works, are the worst. Best PMs that I worked with had a technical background.

>Best PMs that I worked with had a technical background.

Best PMs I worked with just figured out what users wanted and organized the team to build it through good communication. That's it.

Sometimes the technical PMs can be an issue because they care too much about the how and not enough of the why and what.

If your product is selling devtools to developers, then yes, it helps to have a technical PM. Case by case.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#29
Good devs with good communication == Better then PM

Dev + Business = speed and customer centric

Dev + PM + Business = one more layer, i.e. slow, i.e. some loss of customer voice

I worked at Amazon as dev for 10 yrs. In early days 2001+. Amazon did not hire PMs then. Best of Amazon exp came out in that period. I was part of that myself. Pm is needed for things like building amazon prime. If at all.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#30
post #6

As a developer, and a development manager, the best product managers I've worked with rarely got involved in the "how". Sure, they may generate epic-level tickets in your back log, but lower than that, they trust you and the project people to get things done. Problem is, the org needs to support that, and in most companies, the work that gets the most attention isn't visionary or growth focused, it's whatever is maki…

That only works when the people under them are competent and business interests are reasonably aligned with reward structure.
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